More discussion on clones

[M.Adhir]

Here's my take :

It's not right to 1:1 clone stuff.
It's even less right to pass it off as authentic.

It's definitely not right to clone juices, and by this I mean creating cheap quality knockoffs with the same labelling etc as the original.

It's fine enough if two juices taste identical and are safely made by different juicers- copy and paste the flavour if you must, but don't copy and paste the labelling.

Through all of the above - as much as it's not 'the right thing to do', until there's are laws, copyrights, patents in place to direct otherwise, all will happen, and it remains the consumers choice to pick the lane they want to drive in, provided they are made fully aware upfront of the possible risks, and authenticity of the lanes they have been directed to.

 

[BioHAZarD]

You all asked for a fight and no one responded, so I just took the other side to keep it entertainng, but now the bone got taken, so Im back on my side. Or you want me on the other side again?

your choice ... obviously

 

[jm10]

Hi @Rob Fisher

I am a little uncertain about how the fact that vaping has become more mainstream has suddenly placed vendors under such dire financial pressures. The less than ethical people you refer to happen to have been the major vape shops up until the middle or so of this year. They had a healthy stock of Clones available to the public. Now that smaller shops are also doing it they suddenly cry foul. I don't quite buy that. Certain vendors made an absolute killing out of some of the popular cloned Facebook list items. They now have the audacity to say. "Hey wait, I am the only one that is allowed to benefit from that tactic". Not cool (if can quote you from our previous discussion)

Another fact that baffles me is that the larger shops are expanding and not getting smaller. You don't open more stores if you are under financial strain. That would be business suicide. For the smaller stores, sure they may be under pressure. To solely blame it on clones I think would be premature. Some investigations would have to be made into their business models, cash flow patterns and capital base. They may have been overextended to begin with.



CB

Im leaning more towards this side, clones in no way can effect the vendors because non of them carried HE goods to begin with. I doubt 90% of new vapers know about HE. So Clone and HE sales should be small in comparison to general vape sales .

I think sales have dropped due to competition and vape shops opening every other week,

Take me for example, i use to support one place so due to me there sales were slightly higher but on my last big haul i bought from 5 different places so i effected there sales directly. Not one thing was a clone.

In Durban i dont know a single small corner place that sells HE clones, i know china malls have but thats all smok stuff so i dont even bother.

I agree that china is doing the wrong thing by stealing and taking a mans pride and join and copying it is just not right but life is not fair so you just have to push through or go legal.

 

[BioHAZarD]

You remind of that guy on TWD Neegan lol....all tough on the outside yet mildly entertaining on the inside....

If ever you are in JHB/PTA hit me up would love to have a beer with you and NOT talk about vape stuff.....

Haha
Had to go check up on the character. I am not actually that funny. Sure thing bud. I might even take you off my ignore list.

 

[Rob Fisher]

Im leaning more towards this side, clones in no way can effect the vendors because non of them carried HE goods to begin with. I doubt 90% of new vapers know about HE. So Clone and HE sales should be small in comparison to general vape sales .

I think sales have dropped due to competition and vape shops opening every other week,

Take me for example, i use to support one place so due to me there sales were slightly higher but on my last big haul i bought from 5 different places so i effected there sales directly. Not one thing was a clone.

In Durban i dont know a single small corner place that sells HE clones, i know china malls have but thats all smok stuff so i dont even bother.

I agree that china is doing the wrong thing by stealing and taking a mans pride and join and copying it is just not right but life is not fair so you just have to push through or go legal.

It's not all about HE... and Durban isn't half as affected as Gauteng is... I was blissfully unaware of just how bad the selling of clone Pico's and fake juice was until my visit to JHB and PTA...

 

[jm10]

Thank you.

From my side I apologize to the community for my emotional responses. We are all better than this and at the end of the day its about the community and staying healthy. I'm sure one day we'll have a beer and laugh about this sillyness.... Gooi Wolke Pappa!

Ill buy first round, hows the bar under my bridge suit you

 

[BioHAZarD]

Who said you were invited

You don't get to me without going through him.

 

[Rob Fisher]

The IP thing is a non-event as it becomes a legal interpretation and I don't hold myself out to be a lawyer. My personal views on this are clear. If you want it to be yours. Patent it. The customer is paying enough to warrant the expense.

Gonna answer each issue by itself if I may... It's not what is legally enforceable... it's more about ethics and what is right. What the cloners are doing is simply not right. Also having just done a patent in the last year myself (software) I can tell you that most of the high-end modders don't have the cash to do that in one country let alone multiple countries... and enforcing the law worldwide is another matter as well. I'm sorry but copying another man's intellectual property like they do is just wrong. Surely you can't argue about that?

 

[Rob Fisher]

I am a little uncertain about how the fact that vaping has become more mainstream has suddenly placed vendors under such dire financial pressures. The less than ethical people you refer to happen to have been the major vape shops up until the middle or so of this year. They had a healthy stock of Clones available to the public. Now that smaller shops are also doing it they suddenly cry foul. I don't quite buy that. Certain vendors made an absolute killing out of some of the popular cloned Facebook list items. They now have the audacity to say. "Hey wait, I am the only one that is allowed to benefit from that tactic". Not cool (if can quote you from our previous discussion)

Another fact that baffles me is that the larger shops are expanding and not getting smaller. You don't open more stores if you are under financial strain. That would be business suicide. For the smaller stores, sure they may be under pressure. To solely blame it on clones I think would be premature. Some investigations would have to be made into their business models, cash flow patterns and capital base. They may have been overextended to begin with.

Another consideration is that the market as it stands currently may have reached some form of saturation point. Vendors should be grateful for the fact that we are willing to buy any new bloody atty that is released like a bunch of sheep. Financially this is not a sustainable endeavor. The market is just correcting itself.

You intimate that I'm talking about the bigger vape vendors... I'm not. I'm talking about specific vape shops that have never ever sold a clone and who are now finding it hard to make ends meet because of the unscrupulous shops who are not dedicated vape shops selling clone Pico's and fake juice right on their doorstep. And of course it's not solely due to the clones and fake juice but they are certainly having a big impact. The fact is these unscrupulous sellers are stuffing up the market...

 

[jm10]

It's not all about HE... and Durban isn't half as affected as Gauteng is... I was blissfully unaware of just how bad the selling of clone Pico's and fake juice was until my visit to JHB and PTA...

Well call me blissfully unaware aswell, to me the clone market was so small it was insignificant and fully HE.

I think the entire forum is against clone juice, this is unsafe and i always had an issue with this.

At the end of the day i dont own clones for personal reason but i wont stop another person from doing what he wants because i just dont care that much about said person.

*Now no offense to anyone* but i did this for the average joe, not the guy who would buy a clone pico or clone juice.

 

[Rob Fisher]

I honestly don't care about Joe Average. Knowledge is power. You want to vape. Do your research.

You may not care about Joe Average... but I do... I care about the Vaping game from start to finish and these issues are mudding the water and certainly are of no help to the cause at all.

 

[Rob Fisher]

Last thought. I don't think anybody has an in principle problem with your initiative. But there needs to be clear lines. Either ban all the vendors on this forum that don't comply or keep if off the forum in totality.

I hope this does not offend anybody.

Oh, I wish it was that simple... if there were clear lines... but there isn't... the forum is here for the promotion of vaping and getting people off stinkies... and there is no rule that a vendor can't sell clones... but it doesn't mean we can't discuss the issue.

I never get offended when issues are discussed in an adult manner like this.

 

[Daniel]

Well call me blissfully unaware aswell, to me the clone market was so small it was insignificant and fully HE.

I think the entire forum is against clone juice, this is unsafe and i always had an issue with this.

At the end of the day i dont own clones for personal reason but i wont stop another person from doing what he wants because i just dont care that much about said person.

*Now no offense to anyone* but i did this for the average joe, not the guy who would buy a clone pico or clone juice.

I have two work colleagues that bought clone hardware kits....when I handled said hardware it was literally hot to the touch in the sense I knew this will either mal function or just stop working or worse vent (no venting holes btw). I will be visiting this side of the road 'shop' soon and video document it.....

 

[BioHAZarD]

Thanks @Rob Fisher will provide responses when I am back at my computer again. Healthy debate. Very nice.

 

[jm10]

Who said you were invited

Don’t say i never try......


This been civil thing is hard.

 

[Adephi]

I have two work colleagues that bought clone hardware kits....when I handled said hardware it was literally hot to the touch in the sense I knew this will either mal function or just stop working or worse vent (no venting holes btw). I will be visiting this side of the road 'shop' soon and video document it.....

Please make it for your youtube subs.

 

[jm10]

You intimate that I'm talking about the bigger vape vendors... I'm not. I'm talking about specific vape shops that have never ever sold a clone and who are now finding it hard to make ends meet because of the unscrupulous shops who are not dedicated vape shops selling clone Pico's and fake juice right on their doorstep. And of course it's not solely due to the clones and fake juice but they are certainly having a big impact. The fact is these unscrupulous sellers are stuffing up the market...

But Rob how is the NCZ going to fight these non dedicated vape shops if they never join the NCZ and i doubt they will.

By no vape vendor selling clones wouldn’t that increase sales at these non vape shops and there clones.

Just to ad that this is exactly the type of posts that make a person want to join the NCZ movement because to me it was all about HE stuff and zero to do with juice and normal vape stuff.

Sorry still trying to wrap my head around a clone pico i mean really the thing is a couple hundred bucks original.

 

[Rob Fisher]

But Rob how is the NCZ going to fight these non dedicated vape shops if they never join the NCZ and i doubt they will.

By no vape vendor selling clones wouldn’t that increase sales at these non vape shops and there clones.

Just to ad that this is exactly the type of posts that make a person want to join the NCZ movement because to me it was all about HE stuff and zero to do with juice and normal vape stuff.

Sorry still trying to wrap my head around a clone pico i mean really the thing is a couple hundred bucks original.

NCZ isn't fighting anyone... it's a group that subscribes to not selling clones and fake juice and in time people will realise that they should be supporting NCZ vendors.

Yip clone Pico's boggle my brain as well and they sell a lot of them...

 

[M.Adhir]

To answer the Pico question to an extent:

As a smoker, when I decided to stop smoking and start vaping, I walked into a vape shop and nearly fell over after hearing prices. Bearing in mind at the time everyone was telling me vaping is cheaper than smoking.
Then suddenly - pico kit is R850, but you need a battery (150). And a spare battery(150) in case that one dies on you. And an external charger(350), coz it's better to use that. And some spare coils, so you don't run back to smoking coz your coil burnt (200), and flavour - get two at least, one fruity (150) and one tobacco in case you feel for the taste of a smoke(150).

Now compare that to even a pack a day smoker - where the entire month would cost around R1100.

And wonder why people who are just getting off cigs are the most likely to buy clone entry level hardware (and likely clone juices from the same shop)

 

[Jean claude Vaaldamme]

Sorry still trying to wrap my head around a clone pico i mean really the thing is a couple hundred bucks original.

China mall, R450 plus a fake battery

 

[jm10]

As a smoker, when I decided to stop smoking and start vaping, I walked into a vape shop and nearly fell over after hearing prices. Bearing in mind at the time everyone was telling me vaping is cheaper than smoking.
Then suddenly
- pico kit is R850,
but you need a battery (150).
And a spare battery(150) in case that one dies on you.
And an external charger(350), coz it's better to use that.
And some spare coils, so you don't run back to smoking coz your coil burnt (200),
and flavour - get two at least, one fruity (150) and one tobacco in case you feel for the taste of a smoke(150). Total bill for something I had no assurance would help me = R2000.

Now compare that to even a pack a day smoker - where the entire month would cost around R1100/1200.

And wonder why people who are just getting off cigs are the most likely to buy clone entry level hardware (and likely clone juices from the same shop)

That does make sense.

 

[Rob Fisher]

To answer the Pico question to an extent:

As a smoker, when I decided to stop smoking and start vaping, I walked into a vape shop and nearly fell over after hearing prices. Bearing in mind at the time everyone was telling me vaping is cheaper than smoking.
Then suddenly - pico kit is R850, but you need a battery (150). And a spare battery(150) in case that one dies on you. And an external charger(350), coz it's better to use that. And some spare coils, so you don't run back to smoking coz your coil burnt (200), and flavour - get two at least, one fruity (150) and one tobacco in case you feel for the taste of a smoke(150).

Now compare that to even a pack a day smoker - where the entire month would cost around R1100.

And wonder why people who are just getting off cigs are the most likely to buy clone entry level hardware (and likely clone juices from the same shop)

Or they buy a Twisp Cue on special at R400.

 

[Rob Fisher]

China mall, R450 plus a fake battery

Yip exaclty!

 

[Daniel]

China mall, R450 plus a fake battery

And that's the problem the fake battery these batteries aren't even rated 10A continuous even a 1ohm coil is going to strain that battery.... Poof.... Needless to say I tuned my less informed colleagues I would PIF them a battery and my old Pico

 

[Daniel]

Or they buy a Twisp Cue on special at R400.

R350 if you download the app and refer someone