So the Fake Juice Situation...

[RainstormZA]

Speaking of clean-rooms, I'd been vaping for about a week when I met the owner and mixologist of a juice line. He makes the juice at home, but he made sure to tell me that he has a clean room. I assumed that he meant that that room in his house was clean, but not the others. Only later in the conversation did I realise that wasn't what he meant and he then explained what a clean-room is.

Hyphens are important:
Clean-room means a proper mixing room, meeting health standards re air purity, stainless steel counters etc. etc.
Clean room simply means a room that is clean!

Or a laboratory style where it's easier to keep things clean. I have been in a lab and believe it or not, I want a lab style room for my stuff - not only ejuice but I work with herbs too for food and medicine. I harvest, clean, dry and then package the dried / grinder herbs into tubs for the winter.

 

[aktorsyl]

Speaking of clean-rooms, I'd been vaping for about a week when I met the owner and mixologist of a juice line. He makes the juice at home, but he made sure to tell me that he has a clean room. I assumed that he meant that that room in his house was clean, but not the others. Only later in the conversation did I realise that wasn't what he meant and he then explained what a clean-room is.

Hyphens are important:
Clean-room means a proper mixing room, meeting health standards re air purity, stainless steel counters etc. etc.
Clean room simply means a room that is clean!

Yes, I was referring to the former (with the hyphen) Usually they have positive pressure too.
I work in clean-rooms and labs on a daily basis (not e-liquid-related, though), they're a pain to maintain.

 

[Faiyaz Cheulkar]

I work with herbs too for food and medicine. I harvest, clean, dry and then package the dried / grinder herbs into tubs for the winter.

"herbs" .... just kidding

 

[RainstormZA]

"herbs" .... just kidding

Hehehe I wish. Can't risk getting a record before I go to the uk.

Mostly table herbs as they are quite expensive in the shops and no flavour to boost. Mine has so much flavour, even dried. My mom uses them fresh in salads and they're always a winner.

 

[vicTor]

Hehehe I wish. Can't risk getting a record before I go to the uk.

Mostly table herbs as they are quite expensive in the shops and no flavour to boost. Mine has so much flavour, even dried. My mom uses them fresh in salads and they're always a winner.

hope you don't forget us here on the forum when you go to UK !

 

[RainstormZA]

hope you don't forget us here on the forum when you go to UK !

Heck no I won't forget you all.

 

[Adephi]

No DIY'er is marketing it as a commercial juice.

I make my own juice. In a clean room? No. But would I sell it to others? Hell no. If they get salmonella or listeria or cornucopia or whatever the hell from it, then that'd be on me

PG has got antimicrobial properties. There is an article on here somewhere of a woman in the UK that claims vaping helped her with a chronic streptococcus throat infection.
VG puts extreme osmotic pressure on bacteria further killing off whats left.
Then the coils burn at around 300°C if I'm correct. No pathogenic bacteria or virus can survive 100°C. Hence why need to boil water when you go camping.

the thing that bothers me about fakes, they obviously taste different. So even if the package states that it is free from acetyls and dikotyls and other things I have a hard time to type or pronounce, how much of that could be in there and at what levels.

 

[RainstormZA]

PG has got antimicrobial properties. There is an article on here somewhere of a woman in the UK that claims vaping helped her with a chronic streptococcus throat infection.
VG puts extreme osmotic pressure on bacteria further killing off whats left.
Then the coils burn at around 300°C if I'm correct. No pathogenic bacteria or virus can survive 100°C. Hence why need to boil water when you go camping.

the thing that bothers me about fakes, they obviously taste different. So even if the package states that it is free from acetyls and dikotyls and other things I have a hard time to type or pronounce, how much of that could be in there and at what levels.

Ditto. I can taste chemicals very well which totally puts me off.

 

[Hooked]

Yes, I was referring to the former (with the hyphen) Usually they have positive pressure too.
I work in clean-rooms and labs on a daily basis (not e-liquid-related, though), they're a pain to maintain.

What do you do, @aktorsyl?

 

[aktorsyl]

PG has got antimicrobial properties. There is an article on here somewhere of a woman in the UK that claims vaping helped her with a chronic streptococcus throat infection.
VG puts extreme osmotic pressure on bacteria further killing off whats left.
Then the coils burn at around 300°C if I'm correct. No pathogenic bacteria or virus can survive 100°C. Hence why need to boil water when you go camping.

the thing that bothers me about fakes, they obviously taste different. So even if the package states that it is free from acetyls and dikotyls and other things I have a hard time to type or pronounce, how much of that could be in there and at what levels.

PG can deprive the microbes of water which definitely isn't good for them, yes.
I agree with you except on one aspect.. the coil doesn't burn the whole chamber at 300 C. Microbes can technically make their way to the condensation at the sides & top of the chamber and make its way into your airways. I say technically because the chances of that happening regularly are low. But they're not zero, so, yknow If it's a tank, you'd probably see even less of that happening, since they pretty much would have to pass the coil first. In an RDA, they have a few shortcuts. Some of these little bastards can be pretty resilient. Handle a bottle of janky juice and touch your face, and there you go. An even shorter shortcut.

But what I'm generally even more concerned about is chemicals. You never know whether you've got FA Guava or catpiss in that bottle (FYI, they taste the same, I'd imagine). You don't know whether it has microscopic fibres from the environment in there. Imagine a guy mixing fake juices in his garage with damaged asbestos walls. That's a fun thing to vape.

Yes, I realise the above are all worst-case scenarios. Are they over the top? No, not really. If it can happen, you can bet it has happened to someone somewhere, and will again. If we want to put ourselves in a losing position in our debate with legislators on vaping laws, we'd be turning a blind eye to potentially dangerous fake juices.

 

[RichJB]

Microbes can technically make their way to the condensation at the sides & top of the chamber and make its way into your airways.

Not if your atty has perfect airflow. And we all know that there's only one bloke who has done that...

~ When you're all al-oen
With a Chinese cl-oen
Who you gonna call?
Njord-busters!
If your juice is funked
And your coil is gunked
Who you gonna call?
Njord-busters!! ~

 

[Silver]

Not if your atty has perfect airflow. And we all know that there's only one bloke who has done that...

~ When you're all al-oen
With a Chinese cl-oen
Who you gonna call?
Njord-busters!
If your juice is funked
And your coil is gunked
Who you gonna call?
Njord-busters!! ~

Classic @RichJB !

 

[Humbolt]

Possibly off topic, but how many of our juice makers actually manufacture their products in lab quality clean rooms? Just have a look on Facebook, everybody these days is a juice maker. And what irks me the most, is the pricing. These "homebrew" juice makers selling their juices at the same price and sometimes more than well established juice companies like VooDoo for example, who, and I stand to be corrected, actually do manufacture their juices in a lab. So what is the difference between buying a fake chinese juice and a local "homebrew" juice then, when neither of them have gauranteed quality controls in place?

 

[Faiyaz Cheulkar]

A few months back I was visiting a local groceries stores and I saw the shop keeper selling a pack of "j**" cigarettes which is a SA brand for R12. A few days later I was at pick and pay and I saw the same cigarette being sold for around R30! I dint understand this, I assumed that the local groceries store was selling fakes so when I got a chance I spoke to the grocery store guy who told me that these are cigarettes for which some of the taxes have not been paid and thats why its cheap. He said these local brands and they cannot compete with the international brands if they are of the same price hence they find a way to avoid taxes and target the low income group who cannot afford expensive cigarettes.

Whatever he said kept me wondering if it was the truth or just a cover up for the fact that he is selling fakes. So I did some research and found out that the actual cost of production of a packet of cigarettes is less than R5 but then taxes like central excise, production tax, Octroi, VAT etc etc add up and then the distributor and retailer margins makes the commodity expensive.

I am guessing the Chinese are doing something similar in regards to nasty juice, but this theory doesn't explain clones for vgod, western nic etc.

 

[RainstormZA]

A few months back I was visiting a local groceries stores and I saw the shop keeper selling a pack of "j**" cigarettes which is a SA brand for R12. A few days later I was at pick and pay and I saw the same cigarette being sold for around R30! I dint understand this, I assumed that the local groceries store was selling fakes so when I got a chance I spoke to the grocery store guy who told me that these are cigarettes for which some of the taxes have not been paid and thats why its cheap. He said these local brands and they cannot compete with the international brands if they are of the same price hence they find a way to avoid taxes and target the low income group who cannot afford expensive cigarettes.

Whatever he said kept me wondering if it was the truth or just a cover up for the fact that he is selling fakes. So I did some research and found out that the actual cost of production of a packet of cigarettes is less than R5 but then taxes like central excise, production tax, Octroi, VAT etc etc add up and then the distributor and retailer margins makes the commodity expensive.

I am guessing the Chinese are doing something similar in regards to nasty juice, but this theory doesn't explain clones for vgod, western nic etc.

Cross border smuggling - that's why it's cheap. Someone told me, I Cant remember if it was a friend or shopkeeper.

 

[Faiyaz Cheulkar]

PG has got antimicrobial properties. There is an article on here somewhere of a woman in the UK that the thing that bothers me about fakes, they obviously taste different. So even if the package states that it is free from acetyls and dikotyls and other things I have a hard time to type or pronounce, how much of that could be in there and at what levels.

Possibly off topic, but how many of our juice makers actually manufacture their products in lab quality clean rooms? Just have a look on Facebook, everybody these days is a juice maker. And what irks me the most, is the pricing. These "homebrew" juice makers selling their juices at the same price and sometimes more than well established juice companies like VooDoo for example, who, and I stand to be corrected, actually do manufacture their juices in a lab. So what is the difference between buying a fake chinese juice and a local "homebrew" juice then, when neither of them have guaranteed quality controls in place?

Unless there is a government quality control or a "department of juice control" these checks will never be done.
Also we have all come across legal actions against well known brands for not meeting standards or misleading facts on their packaging. Famous examples are "johnson and johnson" baby power has asbestos in it, or recently "Maggie" being banned in India because of misleading packaging and possible lead in their noodles.

 

[Faiyaz Cheulkar]

Cross border smuggling - that's why it's cheap. Someone told me, I Cant remember if it was a friend or shopkeeper.

That and there is South African produced cigarettes for which somehow they have avoided all taxes.

 

[aktorsyl]

Possibly off topic, but how many of our juice makers actually manufacture their products in lab quality clean rooms? Just have a look on Facebook, everybody these days is a juice maker. And what irks me the most, is the pricing. These "homebrew" juice makers selling their juices at the same price and sometimes more than well established juice companies like VooDoo for example, who, and I stand to be corrected, actually do manufacture their juices in a lab. So what is the difference between buying a fake chinese juice and a local "homebrew" juice then, when neither of them have gauranteed quality controls in place?

I've seen a few of them mention the fact. We've seen VapourMountain's facility, and the labels of a few more local juices state that they are manufactured in positive-pressure clean-rooms. Can't recall off the top of my head which ones, but I'd imagine almost all of the mainstream ones are. These guys took time to develop a quality juice, they're not going to take chances. Yes, there aren't regulations specific to the production of e-liquids, but if the regulators want to be spiteful or creative they can still throw the book at transgressors under the food safety regulations.

What you will also find, is that many of the juice manufacturers outsource the actual "production" of the juice to a company that is FSSC/ISO (with or without HACCP) certified. This helps them cut costs and keep product quality consistent.

The pricing is a whole other arena of debate though. Personally I think most of the juice manufacturers are borderline insane with the prices they're charging at the moment. But that's a topic for another thread The one-shots are doing a lot to alleviate this problem, however.

 

[Humbolt]

I've seen a few of them mention the fact. We've seen VapourMountain's facility, and the labels of a few more local juices state that they are manufactured in positive-pressure clean-rooms. Can't recall off the top of my head which ones, but I'd imagine almost all of the mainstream ones are. These guys took time to develop a quality juice, they're not going to take chances. Yes, there aren't regulations specific to the production of e-liquids, but if the regulators want to be spiteful or creative they can still throw the book at transgressors under the food safety regulations.

What you will also find, is that many of the juice manufacturers outsource the actual "production" of the juice to a company that is FSSC/ISO (with our without HACCP) certified. This helps them cut costs and keep product quality consistent.

The pricing is a whole other arena of debate though. Personally I think most of the juice manufacturers are borderline insane with the prices they're charging at the moment. But that's a topic for another thread

Bordererline insane is being nice, they are definitley insane with their prices and it pisses me off. Anyways, like I said, the juice makers who have been around from the start or from early in the vaping game, such as Vapour Mountain, really do what is best for the consumer by having clean rooms. My point is though, that we are all against these fake chinese juices, and rightfully so, but what about these homebrew juice makers who are absolutely everywhere too? Everybody is jumping on the juice making bandwagon to make a quick buck. On your point about outsourcing to a lab, I know that Lungasm does this. I feel more juice makers should state on their packaging that their juice is lab produced, or at least have some sort of proof that it is. I suppose that is where legislation and regulations will help.

 

[Humbolt]

Unless there is a government quality control or a "department of juice control" these checks will never be done.
Also we have all come across legal actions against well known brands for not meeting standards or misleading facts on their packaging. Famous examples are "johnson and johnson" baby power has asbestos in it, or recently "Maggie" being banned in India because of misleading packaging and possible lead in their noodles.

True, and I suppose its too much to expect some juice manufacturers to actually have some integrity to put the proper quality control procedures into place and make it known on their label.

 

[RichJB]

The draft Bill makes reference to this:

7. (1) No person shall manufacture for sale or import a tobacco product or electronic delivery system unless it complies with such standards as may be prescribed and has been tested in the prescribed manner and using prescribed methods.
...
9. (1) the Minister may make regulations regarding -
...
(d) the content, composition and emissions of a relevant product, including -
(i) the amount of any substance or ingredient that may be contained in a product or its emissions...

This makes clear reference to standards, which prescribe specifications that the product should comply with (voluntary standard) or must comply with (compulsory specification). The future tense "may" is used because we currently don't have a national standard for juice, nor does the international community, ISO is still working on it. Once ISO finalises and publishes the standard, my guess is that SA will adopt it as is for the SA National Standard on juice.

That leaves juice manufacturers or importers with two routes:
1) Have the product tested locally, by the SABS or another accredited third party lab, for compliance with the national standard. Or
2) Supply paperwork from an accredited lab overseas that the product complies with the international standard and therefore with the SANS.

Both routes should open access to our market. This is also the reason why national standards bodies are urged to adopt the ISO international standard as their national standard because it reduces bureaucracy and enables global trade. The ideal for standards bodies and regulators is for products to be "tested against one standard, once". If every country adopts the same standard for juice, then any manufacturer who has his product tested and complies with that standard has access to every market, which is the goal of the free market principle.

It seems some SA industry players are against the imposition of standards as they feel this will be used to "ban" products. That is the glass half-empty view. The glass half-full view is that when you have a standard in place, you have a legal mechanism to lock sub-standard products out of our market. Currently, regulators could confiscate and destroy fakes due to IP infringements but not due to safety. The manufacturer, importer or seller could ask govt to quantify what is in the juice that is not allowed to be there, and which merits confiscation. Govt wouldn't have an answer for them. They will only have that answer when there is a national standard in place.

It is true that the government could write the standards in such a ridiculously prescriptive way that many products are prohibited. But I can't see this happening for three reasons. The first is that standards development is an inclusive process that involves govt, industry and civil society. So the juice industry would have representatives in the technical committee that drafted the standard.

The second reason is that it costs a lot of money to develop a standard. You have to pay a bunch of experts to give up their time to sit in discussions and meetings. Govt is usually unwilling to spend that sort of money if they can just take the ISO international standard as is and adopt it as the SANS.

The third reason is that having a different standard from the rest of the world puts us out of sync. Generally, we don't like being out of sync. That is why we are adopting the WHO's guidance on tobacco regulations. We like to fit in with what other countries are doing.

There are aspects of the regulations which warrant concern and opposition. But the imposition of national/international standards isn't one of those things imo. This is not some new-fangled thing, it is a robust mechanism that is applied to almost all industry sectors and it generally works well to safeguard the interests of consumers and legit manufacturers/importers/retailers alike.