South Africa Lambasted in DIY Community...

[DougP]

Okay now I getting the picture
So it's about the commercial side of it as opposed to private use and/or riding on the credibility of establish companies/people

Thanks guys

 

[Caveman]

I just watched the video again, an interesting thing to note, he doesn't hammer on so much about the fact that they are actually being sold, but rather on the fact that he might get a bad name for people selling bad quality versions of it, which I find respectable. It is wrong to sell it without consent yeah, but he is more concerned about the quality of the product then people blaming him, which says a lot about him in general actually.

I'm am trying to not have a blonde moment here ....
I don't understand the fundementals of this
Help
Wayne creates a recipe which he posts online and "assumption 1 here - it's publicly available for people to use"
Now somebody here takes said recipe "assumption 2" and then mixes it and markets it as their own recipe and sells this commercially
So if Wayne created a cookie doughnut recipe then the company down here calls it coekie swirl as an example . If my assumption is correct then how does Wayne land up getting questions on quality and flavor profile
Or is this Company calling it Wayne's coekie doughnut which doesn't make sense because it is for free for anybody to view and use
Or am I totally on the wrong track here

I thought the same thing as you but it's not. It companies selling Wayne's Bronuts as Bronuts saying it was created by DIY or DIE. They are not selling it off as their own, they are giving the credit to DIY or DIE, but they are selling it as DIY or DIE without permission

 

[n0ugh7_zw]

i have absolutely no issue with clone atties and mods...

and this issue is not like that at all... no one buys a goon clone and then bitches to 528 customs about it. i mean get real.

and thats the core issue here. that wayne dude is being forced to be responsible for a product that he has no control over. He can't oversee the conditions the mixtures are made in, or techniques used in the mixing. or the bottling/packaging

 

[n0ugh7_zw]

From the DoD Website:

ALL RECIPES, RECIPE STYLES, AND FLAVOR NOTES ARE THE SOLE PROPERTY OF WALKER VAPOR GROUP LLC. THEY ARE NOT FOR COMMERCIAL USE BY ANY AGENT IN ANY STATE. PLEASE CONTACT WALKER VAPOR GROUP IF YOU'D LIKE TO USE ANY CONTENT.

they really should re-word that. because someone could take the meaning to be that it only governs its use in the united states. not the world.

 

[Effjh]

i have absolutely no issue with clone atties and mods...

and this issue is not like that at all... no one buys a goon clone and then bitches to 528 customs about it. i mean get real.

and thats the core issue here. that wayne dude is being forced to be responsible for a product that he has no oversight over.

Exactly this. Anyone who follows DIYorDIE knows he is not fussed about the monetary side of things. I mean the amount of info, recipes and content he provides for FREE is astounding. He has no control over the quality when people market juices using his brand name. It is about tarnishing a brand he built from the ground up for the community as a member of that community. Not some company catering to an elite few.

 

[n0ugh7_zw]

Exactly this. Anyone who follows DIYorDIE knows he is not fussed about the monetary side of things. I mean the amount of info, recipes and content he provides for FREE is astounding. He has no control over the quality when people market juices using his brand name. It is about tarnishing a brand he built from the ground up for the community as a member of that community. Not some company catering to an elite few.

It's only business. if his name is dragged through the dirt over some crap that he dishes out for free, it means whatever work he doesn't do for free inherently loses its value and credibility. He has to protect his brand.

 

[DougP]

I swear I was just born ignorant (some might argue dumb) and I guess I am just to trusting of people.
I would never have figured out how to exploit something like this for my own financial gain

 

[method1]

While it's true that the primary part of WW's rant was directed towards people using his brand without permission, the issue of commercial use of a recipe (branded or not) is also not taken lightly.

In the same video NCM brings up an issue where he has been told that a local brand is selling one of his recipes (in e-liquid form).
I think it's important to understand the 2 issues separately, & both are of concern to the DoD team.

 

[n0ugh7_zw]

i think having a south african version of molecule labs or goodlife vapors would go someway to helping the situation.

A place that has, manufacturing, packaging and distribution all sorted out. So that mixologists can simply go there with their recipe and get them mass produced and sold for what is effectively a royalty payment per bottle.

one of the rules of such a company could be that direct theft/plagiarism or misrepresentation of the juice would be not allowed.

that would act as a disincentive the smaller guys to go the clone route.

It takes the risk out of the hands of the little guys to an extent, and is active encouragement for them to be creative and come up with new stuff.

 

[DougP]

i think having a south african version of molecule labs or goodlife vapors would go someway to helping the situation.

A place that has, manufacturing, packaging and distribution all sorted out. So that mixologists can simply go there with their recipe and get them mass produced and sold for what is effectively a royalty payment per bottle.

one of the rules of such a company could be that direct theft/plagiarism or misrepresentation of the juice would be not allowed.

that would act as a disincentive the smaller guys to go the clone route.

It takes the risk out of the hands of the little guys to an extent, and is active encouragement for them to be creative and come up with new stuff.

If I'm Not mistaken there is a company here that is offering a service like this.
I was approached by them but for the life of me cannot remember their name

 

[n0ugh7_zw]

If I'm Not mistaken there is a company here that is offering a service like this.
I was approached by them but for the life of me cannot remember their name

For smaller guys it might be well worth their time. and it'd also make regulating juices in south africa a lot more streamlined. Because i think we can all agree that it would be better to self-regulate than to have a government agency step in and impose regulation.

Perhaps a e-liquid makers federation or some such. that can regulate mixing conditions, and also control branding to an extent so that we don't have products that can be accused of being marketed to underage demographics?

I'm just thinking out loud, I don't make juice or anything like that. but I do run a company, and know things, sort of.

 

[DougP]

This is a whole new discussion on its own so I don't want to be seen to be derailing this thread in anyway because "da bossman Silver" will be here like a rocket to kick our butts

 

[Paulie]

Great to see the cloners selling production juice getting called out especially for us mixers who spend countless hours on making our recipes from scratch!

 

[kev mac]

I don't want to say much about this other than i'm extremely disappointed - and I would like to get to the bottom of this.

Please just click on the video link, you will see it starts at 1:22:09 - and listen from there onwards.

So I went to the DIY or Die site to comment on the video involving the ejuice situation and saw that S.A.is well represented there and all the comments stated quite strongly that recipe stealing crossed the line,South African vapers spoke loudly on the issue.

 

[PSySpin]

Ok i just went and watch the episode. I personally feel that the guys that are steeling there the recipes must be named so that we a community can actively boycott them

 

[Quintusson]

Great to see the cloners selling production juice getting called out especially for us mixers who spend countless hours on making our recipes from scratch!

I cannot agree more!

Many a late night and weekend was spent creating recipes and failing most of the time before finding something which is great. Taking his recipes, copying them and selling them off is like watching rugby on DSTV, taping it on your camcorder and then selling it to TopTV or something. I have huge respect for Wayne as his DIY videos helped me a LOT in the beginning! Copying and selling recipes as your own extends to further than just Wayne, any recipe from a site like e-liquid-recipes or such is credit for the creator and not some yob who wants to make a quick buck.

 

[CloudsOfEbola]

As a new mixer, and one who is hoping maybe to one day release something into the market, I have a question or two :

1) What constitutes recipe theft? In this case I agree that DoD has a very valid point, no one should be stealing others recipes and passing them off as their own. But if I want to mix a Blueberry Cheesecake and sell it for profit, how does that work if I have taken a recipe from a site and modified it slightly. To what extent must something be altered before it can be termed "new" or "original"?

2) Is there a local body, like a "Quality Control" entity that you can approach and say "Here, this is my ejuice I want to send to market, can you please OK the contents for me? Here is my recipe...is this recipe infringing any rights?"

Sure, I`m probably not going to release a Blueberry Cheescake as this has been done loads of times by loads of people, the idea is to get something "Original", but at some point you are going to be using tips from your favourite mixers and using their products.

3) What does Wayne mean by "exclusive rights" to his products in South Africa? Does it mean I can not use his concentrates in my recipes as someone else holds the rights? Or is he referring to his recipes?

 

[Takie]

I wonder if it is worthwhile to expose South Africa to Vape Court or to actually create our own branch of it. It seems that the SA market has grown to an extent that something of this nature is required. Thoughts?

 

[Lingogrey]

There is nothing that can be done except if the guilty seller gets a conscience.
The dicks will just claim a recipe by changing the percentage (0,5 to 0.4%) of one of the ingredients slightly.
That's why i decided to post my recipes so that they have a date attached to them and anything after that date remotely similar will put me in the original alchemist seat.

 

[Rob Fisher]

I wonder if it is worthwhile to expose South Africa to Vape Court or to actually create our own branch of it. It seems that the SA market has grown to an extent that something of this nature is required. Thoughts?

Don't think a separate one would work because there are too many factions working in isolation of each other. Vape Court International has worked really well so my vote would be to introduce Vape Court to SA Vapers.

My guess is that 98% of SA Vapers would never have even heard of Vape Court.

 

[Takie]

Don't think a separate one would work because there are too many factions working in isolation of each other. Vape Court International has worked really well so my vote would be to introduce Vape Court to SA Vapers.

My guess is that 98% of SA Vapers would never have even heard of Vape Court.

Well I am happy to open Vape Court to any wanting to join it and get exposed to the international community. Am I allowed to share the link to it?

 

[Rob Fisher]

Well I am happy to open Vape Court to any wanting to join it and get exposed to the international community. Am I allowed to share the link to it?

Yes you sure are... but I would start a new Thread Call Vape Court so you can give the peeps an intro and answer questions they may have. Go ahead and share the link.

 

[craigb]

Yes you sure are... but I would start a new Thread Call Vape Court so you can give the peeps an intro and answer questions they may have. Go ahead and share the link.

@Takie this sounds interesting. Please do start a new thread with more info.

 

[Takie]

@Takie this sounds interesting. Please do start a new thread with more info.

Done

 

[Chukin'Vape]

Ok guys - here is what I have found online, my Google search was : enyawreklaw + the country filter was added to show only sites from South Africa.

PLEASE NOTE - This is the initial search, meaning that we still need to figure out who of these suppliers are Mr Hardwicks resellers. Please feel free to add to this list, if you know of a supplier with enyawreklaw concentrates for sale!

https://www.theflavourmill.co.za/index.php?route=product/category&path=80_127
https://blckvapour.co.za/collections/diy-or-die-concentrates
https://www.vapejunction.co.za/collections/enyawreklaw
https://www.vapechem.co.za/collections/enyawreklaw-concentrates
https://www.vikingsvape.co.za/search?q=enyawreklaw

@Rude Rudi @KZOR @Stosta @Clouds4Days @Trimerion @Richelo Killian @BubiSparks @Dietz @William Vermaak @BumbleBee @PSySpin