Battery safety - even in regulated mods...

[Spongebob]

Guys help me out here please and be gentle with the relative newby? according to this wonky calculator I found online, if I vape with a 1.8 ohm coil, on an ego battery ( typically 3.7 volts at about 8 watts), it says i am pulling 2055 milli amps off a 900 Mah battery? isn't that then considered dangerous??? or are my brain cells of to bed already???





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[incredible_hullk]

@Spongebob 1milliamp = 0.001 Amps hence its 2amps.. use the drop down on ur site and change to amps

 

[Kuhlkatz]

The calculation means that you are drawing 2055 milli-Amperes or just over 2 Amp WHILE you vape.

A battery's mAh rating usually designates the 'capacity' of the battery, and does not indicate the safe current limits that the battery can handle. If a battery is rated at 2500 mAh, it simply means that it can theoretically supply a constant current of 2500 mA (2.5 Amp) for an hour. A 900mAh battery can thus do 900mA for an hour, or likely in the region of 2A for around 20-25 minutes ?

If I remember correctly, for the 900mAh 18350 Li-ion batteries, around 5 to 8 Amp was typically the average safe range.

 

[Spongebob]

Cool thanks, but where can one find the safe ranges for batteries??

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[Silver]

Cool thanks, but where can one find the safe ranges for batteries??

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Hi @Spongebob
One of the international battery testing experts is a guy called Mooch
You can check his blog here:
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blog-entry/moochs-recommended-batteries.7593/

He regularly updates his battery charts where he shows the manufacturer ratings and his ratings for max continuous discharge amperage.

Wont help you for the Ego battery but for the other rechargeable batts that most vapers use.

The point to note is that battery manufacturers often overstate their max continuous discharge ratings. So Mooch helps us to know what the max safe discharge rating is.

 

[RichJB]

@Spongebob, also check out Daniel DJLsb's guide on how to choose the best battery based on your preferred wattage (regulated mod) and coil resistance (mech mod). It will give you a good ballpark of what sort of battery type (mAh and amps) to get.

 

[Kuhlkatz]

Cool thanks, but where can one find the safe ranges for batteries??

The best place imo is on ECF, Mooch's Battery safety grade tables. You can bookmark this local one on ECIGSSA for a reference to get to Mooch's tests that @Silver mentioned above :
https://www.ecigssa.co.za/18650-battery-safety-grades-table.t14853/

In @Alex 's first post, there are a few links to Mooch's results. Typical tests are on 18650's, but he has recently done a few 26650s and I also saw some results for 18350s at https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/f...ch-test-results-and-new-ratings-table.727972/

Batteries like the iJust series & SMOK Stick etc, is best found on their sites. Add a bit of salt when ingesting the results though, as they are also likely exaggerated.

 

[Silver]

@Spongebob, also check out Daniel DJLsb's guide on how to choose the best battery based on your preferred wattage (regulated mod) and coil resistance (mech mod). It will give you a good ballpark of what sort of battery type (mAh and amps) to get.

Thanks @RichJB - that DJLS link is very good. Havent checked it out before
Nice how he shows the wattage and battery configuration for regulated mods
And he has one of Mooch's tables on that page all in one place. Nice page indeed

 

[Raindance]

Would the safeties built into the regulated mod not prevent the use of a coil that draws to many amps?

 

[RichJB]

The coil resistance in a regulated mod is irrelevant, @Raindance. The regulatory buck 'n boost circuitry is in between the battery and the coil, so the amp draw is determined by how many watts you set the mod to (or temp in TC mode), the coil resistance has no effect.

 

[Feliks Karp]

Would the safeties built into the regulated mod not prevent the use of a coil that draws to many amps?

Coil has no baring on your amp draw on a regulated mod, as the coil forms its own circuit with the chip. The mod also has no idea what is the safe amp draw of your batteries, it will simply try to get the wattage from the available volts, at best the battery will drain too quick and the mod will switch off due to "low battery".

 

[Raindance]

Coil has no baring on your amp draw on a regulated mod, as the coil forms its own circuit with the chip. The mod also has no idea what is the safe amp draw of your batteries, it will simply try to get the wattage from the available volts, at best the battery will drain too quick and the mod will switch off due to "low battery".

So what you are saying is that I can have a battery blow out trying to run at 55 watt on a 10 A CDR battery?

 

[Feliks Karp]

So what you are saying is that I can have a battery blow out trying to run at 55 watt on a 10 A CDR battery?

It will probably start to vent or get stressed at that wattage once the battery gets too low, the device has no way of knowing at what amp draw your battery will crap itself that's mainly determined by the internal chemistry of the battery. Maybe some of the newer devices can pick up temperature changes in the batteries but if it gets too hot you are already stressing the battery. It's why it's important to buy reputable batteries and know their limits even when using a regulated mod.

 

[Kuhlkatz]

So what you are saying is that I can have a battery blow out trying to run at 55 watt on a 10 A CDR battery?

That is quite possible yes.
It was stated that the coil does not really matter, but it still does. Based on the coil resistance, the mod will calculate what voltage is needed across the coil to match the Wattage you dialed in. If you exceed the safe thresholds of what the battery can deliver, you might as well not have a fancy regulated mod. In my view it is just as bad using a 10A CDR battery with .32 ohm coil on a mech mod to get your 55W with around 13.1A drawn from the battery, as what it is using a 10A CDR battery in a regulated mod that can easily exceed the battery limits.
You might not always check the screen or might not have the up/down locked and can easily dial in the max wattage by mistake. You will likely get a dry or burnt hit, but you might just get another surprise too.

If I am not smoking my socks, the below applies :
On a .46 ohm build on my VTC Mini, the mod states 5.03v when I dial in 55W, so it steps up (boosts) the voltage based on the coil. Calcs show that the current draw on the coil circuit would be 10.93A. To provide the 55W from the battery which is only 4.2v, the actual current draw from the battery will be almost 13.1A in a perfect world where there are no losses in the electronics. Realistically, at 95% efficiency, the current draw from the battery will be closer to 13.75A. At 75W for the same coil, the current in the coil circuit is 12.76A at 5.87v, but the current draw from the battery would be around 18.7A if still assuming a 95% efficiency.

Short circuit and low-resistance protection is only for the 510 and atty end of the mod circuitry. Overheating warnings may be for the whole mod, but batteries can still go into thermal runaway before the mod shuts down. It's a bit like protecting yourself from scratches by holding onto a cat's front legs only, while leaving the more powerful rear legs unchecked.
[End of sock smoking]

We do not always get to see what voltage is applied across the coil by the mod, and that is why I personally do not like DJLSBs tables 'for the masses'.
My advice to new vapers : rather spend the R150 / R180 / R200 and get 20-25A batteries (or higher) from the word go, and know that you can safely use them virtually anywhere with most sane builds that you might use.
Over-engineering for your own safety is never a bad thing, and besides, R200 can never buy a pair of new eyes, front teeth or whatever else may get in harms way.

 

[Silver]

Thanks @Feliks Karp and @Kuhlkatz
These are very important posts and thanks for clarifying it

I think there is a general feeling among many vapers that regulated mods are safe no matter what coil build or what battery. "The circuitry will intelligently avoid disaster." But it seems this is not the case. I think this needs to be highlighted further

 

[Raindance]

Thanks @Feliks Karp and @Kuhlkatz
These are very important posts and thanks for clarifying it

I think there is a general feeling among many vapers that regulated mods are safe no matter what coil build or what battery. "The circuitry will intelligently avoid disaster." But it seems this is not the case. I think this needs to be highlighted further

A bit embarrassing to admit because I would like to consider myself a pro at this vaping thing but I have never given battery safety a second thought on my regulated mods. Thinking all the internal safeties would take care of that. Fortunately I only use Samsung 25R's and LG hg2's. Have a couple of fake LG's which I only use in a VCT mini with an RBA for juice testing and thought the mod heating up was just because of the RBA.

Scary stuff! Thanks for clearing that up @Feliks Karp and @Kuhlkatz. @Silver , agree totally that this is something we should make known wider. Many of us may be under the same false impression of safety on our regulated mods.

Regards and thanks again.

 

[Silver]

Am proposing to perhaps change the title of this thread to

"Battery safety, even in regulated mods..."
And move to the Batteries subforum

If thread creator @Spongebob approves.

What you think @Kuhlkatz , @Feliks Karp , @Raindance ?

 

[Raindance]

Am proposing to perhaps change the title of this thread to

"Battery safety, even in regulated mods..."
And move to the Batteries subforum

If thread creator @Spongebob approves.

What you think @Kuhlkatz , @Feliks Karp , @Raindance ?

Motion supported Mr chairman.. LOL. Jokes aside, most definitely a good Idea!

 

[Kuhlkatz]

@Silver , No problem with renaming / moving it if @Spongebob has no objections, and his questions are answered.
It might be beneficial to other people with the same question.

 

[johan]

Most important fact to remember; batteries are supplied without brains, so use your own.

 

[Raindance]

Most important fact to remember; batteries are supplied without brains, so use your own.

@johan You are assuming I have one?

 

[Spongebob]

Motion seconded @Silver

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[johan]

@johan You are assuming I have one?

I feckin hope so .

 

[Raindance]

I think the problem is that technology is evolving faster than we (Humans) are. We are becoming reliant on being taken care of and losing the instinct to make sure of all facts before making a decision. Possibly Darwins law adjusting to circumstances?

 

[johan]

Part of your statement doesn't make sense @Raindance - technology is driven by humans that don't believe in Darwin's crap unscientific evolution theories, but by what makes any species survive: Adapt or Die .

Georg Simon Ohm (1789 - 1854) surely didn't evolve. He was a German physicist and mathematician. As a school teacher, Ohm began his research with the new electrochemical cell, invented by Italian scientist Alessandro Volta ...