aren't you supposed to burning something down somewhere "in the name of da peoples"Listen Mina Moo, you can dislike all my post, Constand Bester will proof you wrong
At the risk of my personal well being i offer my 2cents.While I completely sympathise with copy infringement against the developer the people that sell the merchandise are not blameless in the clone war.When I started vapeing about 5 yrs ago I was floored when I saw RDAs going for upwards of 150 bucks.I mean it's a few grams of aluminum for God's sake with no moving parts.And I know many will say "well they had to design it and manufacturer etc.Yes that's true but they didn't invent a perpetual motion machine. So with the prices being asked for an authentic piece it was only a matter of time until clones came on the scene.And I while I don't accept the BMW analogy I'm not passing judgment on anyone only saying that the exorbitant prices for authentic early in the vape game had a hand in clones as we have them today.
I sell hardware on the side. For a v8. If you paying 600-700 they ripping you of. If you paying 350 it's a knock off
OK, my 2c (think we are close to a Rand here with all the 2c so far)(also, please ignore any grammar/syntax mistakes as English is my second most delicious language)
I was one of the first people to join the NCZ group on FB, I thought it was great initiative. I'm regularly ousting sellers of fake juice on FB and as far as I go I warn people against the dangers of using these fake juices and fake Pico/Smok/Kangertech mods and cheap batteries. I was overjoyed that it wasn't going to be just me ranting on FB anymore. I never ousted these peddlers of "death juice" because i thought that 'Nasty might not be able to pay it's bonuses this year' if I didn't, I did it because it poses a major health risk to people that made a conscious decision to live healthier. So when the first complaint about HE gear being cloned and sold for cheaper was posted, I didn't pay it much attention, it takes all sorts to win a war. But then quickly the posts on the group turned to HE Hand checks and people parading expensive mods (In my entire time on the group, I saw maybe 3 posts of people with "Regular" mid-level gear chiming in and showing support) I made a post about helping people with mid-level gear that perform close to HE originals that we could use to suggest to people as alternatives to "clones", if i remember correctly i got about 4-5 responses, and it went in the direction of "Can't compare a Audi to a Beetle" even though I specified I wasn't looking for mid-range that out performed or performed the same as HE, just devices similar in performance. But the HE crowd seems to not like the fact that there might be "cheaper" devices that could out perform their Expensive Devices. And then when it came to the Chubby Gorilla bottles, I lost all interest. The bottles were "for now" a non-issue as the single local supplier of said bottles could not service everyone. So when he does, must all juice makers now use the single South African supplier or be boycotted?
OEM bottles for me leak less in anyway. So although I think the NCZ group was started with great intentions, it became Elitist and Cadre Uplifting very quickly in my humble opinion.
sorry for the "emotional" and non-factional post, but the facts have been stated before in this thread, HE manufacturers develop limited quantities to ensure exclusivity, and I see in no way how Kennedy or the likes are going to suffer due to china clones, as they sell out their stock fairly quickly.
If the initiative turns to the support of stopping dangerous devices and juice, count me back in, but i'm not going to lose sleep over someone buying a R500 Dwarv clone.
Also, there is a well know vendor on here that has helped so many new and existing vapers with advice and getting the right equipment etc, he's PIF a few items to people that needed it and is always helpful, he sells good quality clones in his store, am I to boycott him now because he sells them? So i should rather support the obnoxious and money grubby shops because they have some "Moral supremacy" to that vendor? Hell no I wont. I support the people that actually support the community and not just their bank accounts. No use in throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
I was one of the first people to join the NCZ group on FB, I thought it was great initiative. I'm regularly ousting sellers of fake juice on FB and as far as I go I warn people against the dangers of using these fake juices and fake Pico/Smok/Kangertech mods and cheap batteries. I was overjoyed that it wasn't going to be just me ranting on FB anymore. I never ousted these peddlers of "death juice" because i thought that 'Nasty might not be able to pay it's bonuses this year' if I didn't, I did it because it poses a major health risk to people that made a conscious decision to live healthier. So when the first complaint about HE gear being cloned and sold for cheaper was posted, I didn't pay it much attention, it takes all sorts to win a war. But then quickly the posts on the group turned to HE Hand checks and people parading expensive mods (In my entire time on the group, I saw maybe 3 posts of people with "Regular" mid-level gear chiming in and showing support) I made a post about helping people with mid-level gear that perform close to HE originals that we could use to suggest to people as alternatives to "clones", if i remember correctly i got about 4-5 responses, and it went in the direction of "Can't compare a Audi to a Beetle" even though I specified I wasn't looking for mid-range that out performed or performed the same as HE, just devices similar in performance. But the HE crowd seems to not like the fact that there might be "cheaper" devices that could out perform their Expensive Devices. And then when it came to the Chubby Gorilla bottles, I lost all interest. The bottles were "for now" a non-issue as the single local supplier of said bottles could not service everyone. So when he does, must all juice makers now use the single South African supplier or be boycotted?
OEM bottles for me leak less in anyway. So although I think the NCZ group was started with great intentions, it became Elitist and Cadre Uplifting very quickly in my humble opinion.
sorry for the "emotional" and non-factional post, but the facts have been stated before in this thread, HE manufacturers develop limited quantities to ensure exclusivity, and I see in no way how Kennedy or the likes are going to suffer due to china clones, as they sell out their stock fairly quickly.
If the initiative turns to the support of stopping dangerous devices and juice, count me back in, but i'm not going to lose sleep over someone buying a R500 Dwarv clone.
Also, there is a well know vendor on here that has helped so many new and existing vapers with advice and getting the right equipment etc, he's PIF a few items to people that needed it and is always helpful, he sells good quality clones in his store, am I to boycott him now because he sells them? So i should rather support the obnoxious and money grubby shops because they have some "Moral supremacy" to that vendor? Hell no I wont. I support the people that actually support the community and not just their bank accounts. No use in throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
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BioHAZarD
Guest
That's the beauty of it... they can't claim moral supremacy
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BioHAZarD
Guest
Or they have better import contacts
You see that is were the confusion is, most of the people including those in the NCZ are confused about the cause, they seem to think this is HE vs clones(i thought the same)
I got quiet upset to the fact that people are been made to feel inferior because they did not have the HE hand checks or gear.
Now for me more clarity needs to be made about what is going on, so that the people do know themselves and can educated people not just say it was my choice to join and thats that.....
I do believe it became an elitist thing for allot of the NCZ members because like you said there was mainly HE hand checks, why would no one post there normal to mid tier range?
NCZ was never an elitist group... it's simply about authentic gear and juice.
You have to take into account buying power, trust me i was in the import and distribution game with the Chinese for a long time supplying Edcon/truworths/Woolys/Mr Price .....you think 200% mark up is allot then you have allot to learn.
Imagine if one vendor has the rights and distribution of smok, they are buying in the thousand if not tens of thousands of products a month and distributing to everyone, no one can buy direct because of agreements between the distributor and manufacturer.
They could sell it less themselves then they sell to other vendors but this would backfire because you cant kill who you supply to.
They only way to tell if fake is by verifying the authenticity(scratch and see) or if the shop is in china mall.
Oh no i get that now Rob i really do, i just think allot of people need to understand that
The only people that don't understand that are the ones that are shouting "Elitists!" or "HE bastards!"
Same discrimination works the other way round (NCZ as uncle RoB said was never about this....) , why must I be labeled if I choose to spend my money on higher tier vape gear and be called all kinds of names ?
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The only people that don't understand that are the ones that are shouting "Elitists!" or "HE bastards!"
Same discrimination works the other way round (NCZ as uncle Ron said was never about this....) , why must I be labeled if I choose to spend my money on higher tier vape gear and be called all kinds of names ?
Thought we left the emotions at the door....
Im going to stay on topic here, this is the first time we are hearing the full description of the NCZ and i like it, I’m not fighting the cause I AM FOR IT, you need to realise one thing Daniel, I’m un biased and was under the assumption that this was a war on HE Clones, as did many)
What you seem to misunderstand is no one cares what you buy, but its when the average joe was made to feel unwelcome here with his clones ****** this was before i was educated on the NCZ and came around******
So you see Daniel, it took a few adult words from Rob to educate me and join the cause,
You seem to get to emotionally involved and this makes the NCZ seem arrogant which is not what Rob wants...
So instead of fighting and losing your temper at me continuously(its cool that you have a problem with me, it makes me laugh) educate people on the error of their ways
You seem to get to emotionally involved and this makes the NCZ seem arrogant which is not what Rob wants...
So instead of fighting and losing your temper at me continuously(its cool that you have a problem with me, it makes me laugh) educate people on the error of their ways
No emotion here ..... merely stating what's good for the gander .... and again , I am still to see ANY posts of anyone (let alone the "HE crowd") making anyone feel unwelcome because they using clone hardware.
People are very quick to assume , but we all need to be responsible in what we say on the forum (especially these days with the Legislation looming and vaping under the spotlight) before going off on a tangent and making assumptions (myself included).
Don't put words in my mouth I didn't say
, I never said I had a problem with you personally , not once. I did react to a lot of things said , about me yes ...which in hindsight was the wrong thing to do (and I apologized to the community) , which is why I refrained from commenting even after being the "topic" of discussion for probably 4 pages (I'm flattered , really
) I will be ignoring this thread , as I think everything has been cleared with regards to the NCZ ... so there is no real added value to this besides everyone airing additional frustrations or trying to prove their point.
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BioHAZarD
Guest
I have absolutely zero problem with NCZ.
Having said that I have a huge problem with the vendors that got the community into this position in the first place. Probably not entirely the vendors fault as they were responding to user demand.
This is not a HE vs clone debate. Some members may want to make it that and I disagree. I think my views on this have been made apparent in the previous posts. The vendors themeselves have a lot to answer for and I don't for a moment believe that by simply joining NCZ they are absolved for their part in this fiasco.
I therfore remain prochoice as I don't want to associate myself with vendors that bend as the wind blows.
Having said that I have a huge problem with the vendors that got the community into this position in the first place. Probably not entirely the vendors fault as they were responding to user demand.
This is not a HE vs clone debate. Some members may want to make it that and I disagree. I think my views on this have been made apparent in the previous posts. The vendors themeselves have a lot to answer for and I don't for a moment believe that by simply joining NCZ they are absolved for their part in this fiasco.
I therfore remain prochoice as I don't want to associate myself with vendors that bend as the wind blows.
** please read everything i wrote below, not just bits***
If things are never made it clear then assumptions will be drawn wouldn’t you agree?
Like i have said Daniel, from my viewing of the NCZ i thought it was HE vs clone because there was no evidence to prove otherwise,
After the explanation from Rob, all is clear now and we can fight a common goal.
At the end of the day the Vendors are at fault here, the vendors caused all this hostility we have shown to each other so we should shine the light on that.
They need to take responsibility for the clone wars and they need to push and educate the people now.
In my view, Rob is doing a job they should of done themselves because they were the ones that cashed in on clones and brought the clones here. They cannot now say all is good because they are NCZ memebers, no they need to go public and campaign and advertise against clones. To date i have not seen any advertising for anti cloning excepts Robs attempts with the NCZ,
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BioHAZarD
Guest
I would also like to request that this thread remain open for it has not yet served its full purpose I think.
Agreed, very enlightening thread.
I've said(most) of what I wanted to say. If you guys need me to help burn down a shop selling unsafe fake e-juice or need help breaking the kneecaps of a peddler of dangerous fake mods, let me know and I'm there. I'm still collecting my SXK BB this weekend
@jm10 and @BioHAZarD,
I have been called many names and many assumptions have been made towards myself over the years e.g. elitist and condescending.
I still maintain that there is no such thing as LE gear as the term was coined a while back.
I have made a decision to support only shops that are counterfeit free a good year ago and the guys I generally support had the clone free stance from the beginning of their business as part of their business plan.
I personally feel I get judged (which does not bother me 1 bit) because I chose to only buy authentic gear.
I do not specifically buy HE but rather quality devices that have an element of longevity e.g. a mod with a lifetime guarantee as my aim is fine tune a device and use it for a long time.
Some of my gear is exclusive but it is because I have enjoyed the vape from said atty so much that I had to get more of the same thing.
The bulk of my "exclusive" atties are not for everyone as it's not their vape style and also are about 2 or 3 years old.
I also want to add that I personally have no issues with people using clone devices as it's their choice and the main aim as always is to stop smoking.
I will also not deny that there are people that post items as a show of their status but I can assure you there are not many and the few don't typically last the test of time in any community.
There are many great enthusiasts in this community and I can appreciate our love (and hate) that we have and would encourage and facilitate constructive debates where possible.
I have been called many names and many assumptions have been made towards myself over the years e.g. elitist and condescending.
I still maintain that there is no such thing as LE gear as the term was coined a while back.
I have made a decision to support only shops that are counterfeit free a good year ago and the guys I generally support had the clone free stance from the beginning of their business as part of their business plan.
I personally feel I get judged (which does not bother me 1 bit) because I chose to only buy authentic gear.
I do not specifically buy HE but rather quality devices that have an element of longevity e.g. a mod with a lifetime guarantee as my aim is fine tune a device and use it for a long time.
Some of my gear is exclusive but it is because I have enjoyed the vape from said atty so much that I had to get more of the same thing.
The bulk of my "exclusive" atties are not for everyone as it's not their vape style and also are about 2 or 3 years old.
I also want to add that I personally have no issues with people using clone devices as it's their choice and the main aim as always is to stop smoking.
I will also not deny that there are people that post items as a show of their status but I can assure you there are not many and the few don't typically last the test of time in any community.
There are many great enthusiasts in this community and I can appreciate our love (and hate) that we have and would encourage and facilitate constructive debates where possible.
Totally agree with you and your stance.
I enjoy seeing HE products posted, its exciting and beautiful to look at and i dont hold anything against anyone with HE, i want them all!!! And to see something exclusive is awesome.
No judgement from me or at anyone at all, i choose to buy authentic because of personal reasons.
I dont really have an issue with a bit of a show of, If someone is so insecure that they become jealous thats their issue.
I recall a thread on the forum about a year or so ago that asked vendors to put their names down if they were clone free vendors. Wasn't a very long list If I recall correctly...Personally I know of only one that has never stocked clones...obviously there may be more.Let us speak plainly then.
To date, reputable vendors in SA have for the most part cashed in on clone sales in a huge way. That is not speculation. That is a fact, given that all the products were available for the world to see on their websites and by default then in their stores as well. Now that we have established that point we can further conclude that the market was therefore already fairly saturated by said clone sales and everybody was living happily ever after, expanding and smiling happily to themselves about the fat profits they were making (vendors now).
I don't want to be rude or anything BUT the vendors are 100% to blame for the situation that the little guys are sitting in. Now that this NCZ has started it has mostly likely just created hot spots where clones are being sold in larger quantities than before due to the previously mentioned group of vendors not satisfying the market demand for clones.
I am sorry but that is the honest truth and most likely the view of the general forum (i could of course be totally wrong but then ask yourself....how did all those clones sell out so fast in repeated instances)and putting this spin of IP and the little man on it does the initiative no good and adds absolutely no validity to the cause it is pursuing.
If you want to succeed the vendors that started this whole mess in the first place needs to fix it..... how they do that..... no easy solution
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