Battery Venting and Exploding

Hi @Highlander

I got a few brown LG HG2s a while back from Vape King which had the same warning sticker
Have been using them in my Reos for the past 2 months
They are working great
 
Clever move on the side of the battery manufacturers. Now if somehow something goes wrong with the battery the can't be held liable.
 
ET said:
Clever move on the side of the battery manufacturers. Now if somehow something goes wrong with the battery the can't be held liable.
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Agreed. Anything to avoid a civil claim.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Mooch was saying on Tony Vapor Trail's interview that the 18650 battery manufacturers sell on the understanding that the end user will never touch the battery. Literally. They make 18650s to be inserted into battery packs and then never touched by human hands. How often do you touch the actual 18650s in your laptop? Or electric vehicle? Hence the warnings on the LG batteries. Customers are not abiding by LG's terms and conditions.

Which allows me to raise the issue again about what is the best way forward: for the entire population of vapers to spend hours researching and studying battery safety? Or for LG to change their terms and conditions and bring out a battery that is designed to be handled by the end user?

 
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RichJB said:
...

Which allows me to raise the issue again about what is the best way forward: for the entire population of vapers to spend hours researching and studying battery safety? Or for LG to change their terms and conditions and bring out a battery that is designed to be handled by the end user?
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I think that it is (unfortunately) much like the rest of the vaping world at the moment - take regulation for example: rather lump all products (liquids, tanks, mods) and jam them into the "smoking and tobacco" category of legislation, than take the time to research, write and discuss new legislation. It takes too much time, money and lawyers fees to create something new.

As far as the batteries go, I'm kinda ok with LG just putting a warning on it though. They never created it for this, and they shouldn't have to take on more liability. In terms of the legislation example, well, I don't have to elaborate on the sentiment there!
 
jl10101 said:
As far as the batteries go, I'm kinda ok with LG just putting a warning on it though.
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I'm not because it is anti-progressive. It was fine when vaping globally was 5k enthusiasts building tube mods in their backyard workshops and experimenting with this new technology. It's a mainstream activity now, practised by tens of millions around the world.

Let me draw an analogy with the car industry. That, too, started with a few engineering enthusiasts building prototypes in their backyard workshops. So they make this new thing called a "car" and they used rubber to make a wheel called a "tyre". However, it becomes apparent that rubber tyres are only safe to use on sand, gravel and grass. If you run them at high speed over bricks or tarmac, the friction becomes too great and the rubber bursts into flames. The rubber companies want to limit their liability so they put a sticker on all rubber shipments saying "Warning! Not to be used for car tyres".

Anyway, cars grow in popularity and soon millions of them are being made and sold around the world. Media reports start appearing of tyres bursting into flames when they were used on tar roads. And the car industry's and experienced car owners' response is "Ja but n00bs must do their homework. They must know that you can only use rubber tyres on sand, gravel or grass. If you use it on tar, you're an eejit who deserves to be Darwined. Don't be an Andy - don't drive on tar!"

If that had happened in the car industry, the rubber manufacturers would have recognised car tyres as an exciting and profitable new development, and would have worked with the car manufacturers to deliver a rubber compound that doesn't burst into flames when used on tar roads. Why is this not happening? Battery manufacturers are selling a lot of cells to vapers, and numbers are growing exponentially. Is that the limit of the battery manufacturers' engagement and cooperation with the vaping industry - "Our product is as it is. We will not change or improve it and we wash our hands of all consequences arising from it"? That is unacceptable imo.
 
RichJB said:
I'm not because it is anti-progressive. It was fine when vaping globally was 5k enthusiasts building tube mods in their backyard workshops and experimenting with this new technology. It's a mainstream activity now, practised by tens of millions around the world.

Let me draw an analogy with the car industry. That, too, started with a few engineering enthusiasts building prototypes in their backyard workshops. So they make this new thing called a "car" and they used rubber to make a wheel called a "tyre". However, it becomes apparent that rubber tyres are only safe to use on sand, gravel and grass. If you run them at high speed over bricks or tarmac, the friction becomes too great and the rubber bursts into flames. The rubber companies want to limit their liability so they put a sticker on all rubber shipments saying "Warning! Not to be used for car tyres".

Anyway, cars grow in popularity and soon millions of them are being made and sold around the world. Media reports start appearing of tyres bursting into flames when they were used on tar roads. And the car industry's and experienced car owners' response is "Ja but n00bs must do their homework. They must know that you can only use rubber tyres on sand, gravel or grass. If you use it on tar, you're an eejit who deserves to be Darwined. Don't be an Andy - don't drive on tar!"

If that had happened in the car industry, the rubber manufacturers would have recognised car tyres as an exciting and profitable new development, and would have worked with the car manufacturers to deliver a rubber compound that doesn't burst into flames when used on tar roads. Why is this not happening? Battery manufacturers are selling a lot of cells to vapers, and numbers are growing exponentially. Is that the limit of the battery manufacturers' engagement and cooperation with the vaping industry - "Our product is as it is. We will not change or improve it and we wash our hands of all consequences arising from it"? That is unacceptable imo.
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I can completely see where you are coming from. And while the industries are very different, I think it's for exactly that reason that I am sitting on my side of the fence. For me, it's especially the way it is given that vaping is entrenched in the medical side of things. This is where companies like LG who make batteries, would understandably not want to be involved in what people are inhaling, or in health in general.

I guess it really depends on the product, the manufacturer and what people decide to do with it at the end of the day. As a silly example, say manufacturer X creates the best and sharpest scissors advertised as the perfect office stationary. People then start using it in some strange sub culture of self surgery or something... Now, should the manufacture simply warn that it's not what the scissors are intended for? Or should they make a range of these scissors because they are invariably going to be used for said strange deed, but then, they must take on all the possible slack, responsibilities and risk of cleanliness, possible death, scarring, lawsuits etc etc?

I agree, there is a gap in the market. I guess it's just going to take a brave manufacturer to jump on it! I'm just not sure LG are keen to effectively enter the "health" market, as some lawyers etc will view it as.

Apologies for the...strange...analogy.
 
The thing is that even absent regulation or being forced to change their wraps for H&S reasons, there is a competitive advantage for battery manufacturers in improving their wraps. If one 18650 brand suddenly come out with sturdier and better wraps where the chances of a torn wrap are greatly reduced, and where you never have to rewrap the battery, would you not be motivated to buy that brand? I certainly would.

It falls within the ambit of the capitalist "build a better mousetrap" ethos. I can understand battery manufacturers not wanting to associate themselves with vaping as a whole. What I can't understand is battery manufacturers not wanting to appeal to vapers, and be the brand that vapers prefer. Surely sales to vaping can't be that insignificant that the manufacturers don't even care?
 
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Brand power is what plays a part here, with the whole market in such a controversial state I'm sure they don't even want to be bothered with the politics and possible backlash they could receive from being associated (Sony, LG..), Efest did a crap job and that impacted them harshly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I was reading the one newspaper article and it's comments about a mechmod that exploded in the guys face and broke 7 or something of his teeth.

What utter BS!

If you cannot do the basic self-awareness about safety, don't vape, if you do and you get hurt, IT's ON YOU!

It's like a little principle we use in law enforcement called 'ignorance is no excuse of the law' same thing applies here.

You don't go driving on public streets without any knowledge about rules of the road like stop at a stop sign, so why vape on a mech mod (which is meant for professional vapers) without a basic understanding of how to prevent battery venting and catastrophic failure? Baffles my mind, honestly! Leaves me speechless...

Then he still has the SHEER AUDACITY to go out and say that he always had the vape shop install the battery for him. If you know SO little, that you do not even understand a basic step like installing a battery, WTTTTFFFFFFF are you doing rocking a mech mod????

I saw a child as in like 13 or 14 years old the other day in a shopping mall with a mech mod... Does parents know how dangerous it is???

Nevermind even that, what type of a parent allows a 13 year old to vape/smoke?? If that was me, my father would've donnered me, stone cold DEAD
 
Clouder said:
You don't go driving on public streets without any knowledge about rules of the road like stop at a stop sign, so why vape on a mech mod
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They are two different things: driving is a regulated activity. You cannot do it without a licence and everybody knows that. Vaping is not regulated. It is a consumer item, you can buy it if you want it just like you can buy ice-cream or furniture polish or socks. So how do we reconcile the two? Do we make vaping a regulated activity like driving, where you have to stand in a queue at a government office, pay a licence fee and have some govt official check to see that you are suitably qualified to do it?
 
RichJB said:
They are two different things: driving is a regulated activity. You cannot do it without a licence and everybody knows that. Vaping is not regulated. It is a consumer item, you can buy it if you want it just like you can buy ice-cream or furniture polish or socks. So how do we reconcile the two? Do we make vaping a regulated activity like driving, where you have to stand in a queue at a government office, pay a licence fee and have some govt official check to see that you are suitably qualified to do it?
Click to expand...

I meant the self awareness part.... You don't blindly do something without knowing anything about it. If you do, it's on you.
 
You can only be self-aware if the dangers of something are self-evident. I can be self-aware enough not to hack my finger with a carving knife. So shops don't need to warn me about the dangers of carving knives because Jan Publiek is expected to know. It's common sense. The danger of torn wraps on a battery is not intuitive enough. Did you know that torn wraps on an 18650 are a hazard before you started vaping? It's fine to say "people must do their homework". The problem is that people don't know that they need to know these things. As Mooch says in the interview I linked above, you can't blame someone for not knowing if they don't know (and it's not intuitive) that they need to know. Batteries are not hazardous in other appliances. We use them in Walkmans, torches, cars, TV remotes, phones, laptops without any hazards. Consumers are going to assume that the same applies to batteries in vaping.
 
Soprono said:
Brand power is what plays a part here, with the whole market in such a controversial state I'm sure they don't even want to be bothered with the politics and possible backlash they could receive from being associated (Sony, LG..), Efest did a crap job and that impacted them harshly.
Click to expand...

Sure. But then, as in industry, vaping needs to find a way forward. Being dependent upon battery suppliers who don't want to be associated with vaping, and who aren't willing to lift a finger to improve vaping batteries, is not a way forward.

Let's take the issue of DAAP in juice. Flavour houses didn't disassociate themselves with vaping and refuse to change the product. They reformulated and gave us better (or at least healthier) products. So we can move forward with the flavour houses because they don't mind being associated with vaping. If the big six 18650 battery manufacturers think that vaping is too cringe to be associated with, the vaping industry should find a way to sever ties and move ahead without them.
 
OK, following on from this discussion, Mooch has made an announcement regarding LG batteries:

LG Chem is sending Cease & Desist orders to vendors who they feel are still selling LG batteries to the vaping community. As some of you might know, LG and the other battery companies are dealing with multiple lawsuits from vapers who have had battery accidents. Sony and LG added warnings to their batteries but, evidently, LG didn't feel this was enough. I don't know how many vendors will stop selling LG batteries and for how long but we will probably see multiple vendors removing LG batteries from their websites. It's already started. That's all the info I can discuss here, for now. I'll have updates as I learn more.
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Mooch's post on Reddit.

I think this is a good thing in a way. Vaping needs to mature. By that, I mean it needs to start acting like an industry, not like an enthusiast hobby club. It has grown beyond that point now. So my questions:

1) Will vape vendors no longer selling LG batteries mean that vapers will no longer buy them? I can still buy them for my 'torch', right? How will this affect looming regulation? If regulators can't stop vapers buying LG batteries from other sources, might they look at banning the devices instead?

2) Will the vaping industry catch a wake-up and start doing something about those cursed gossamer-thin wraps on 18650s? Or will they continue to follow the non-starter line of reasoning that "you must do your homework"?

3) Is the vaping market large enough to make the design of a vape-specific battery viable? My understanding is that it is horrendously expensive to design a new type of battery. It is understandable that vaping piggy-backed off existing designs up to now. But is it big enough to start negotiating its own dedicated battery type with the big boys?

Of course, this plays perfectly into big tobacco's hands. They designed their batteries from the start to be safer. Although they had teething problems with fires/explosions especially while charging, their batteries with their harder tear-proof casings are involved in fewer and fewer accidents now. Vaping needs to come up with some answers quickly.

Either way, I see a limited future for mechs. Even the most vape-friendly suggested changes to US vaping laws, the amendments proposed by Rep Duncan Hunter, call for all mods to have safety circuitry built in. Some US vapers told me "No problem if mechs are banned, we just start buying 'torches' instead..." But therein lies the regulatory angle again. If banning mechs doesn't stop the problem, will regulators cast their net wider and start banning other things?
 
It is hugely expensive to manufacture batteries. The only people who manufacture high drain batteries are the industry giants like LG, Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Sanyo. The others just buy those batteries and rewrap them with their own branding. I'm not sure vaping is big enough to merit a dedicated battery manufacturer yet. Remember that of all the world's millions of vapers, the majority are still on big tobacco cigalikes. The people who use open system mods and tanks like we do are still a minority. So I think any solution has to be in conjunction with the huge players. As vaping grows, it may become viable for a dedicated vaping battery manufacturer to set up shop.
 
Good arguments being presented from both sides. So much so i find myself indecisive on the topic. I have to admit that i do lean towards the Darwinist principles but then again....

In any case, my fear is that changes to battery availabilty and/or form factor could condemn all our beloved 18650 mods to the ranks of ornaments in the case of a worst case scenario. We remain dependant on the suppliers of these goods in order to ply our 'trade'. Well, there is the lipo option but how do i make that fit into my Therion?

This is a truly uncomfortable direction we seem to be heading in.

Regards
 
I think now would be the perfect time to start making batteries specifically aimed at vaping (looking at tesla here), there is a ever increasing number of vapers world wide, and if a company can get in the game now, and improve battery safety, they will always hold the majority market share for years to come.

Batery safety is the last "niggle" anti vaping groups have to cling on to. The venting battery stories are few and far between, and usually end user related issues, but these are being blown out of proportion to suit the needs of those anti vaping.

If this hurdle can be crossed successfully now, then there is no limits to how big vaping can and will go.

Just my 2 cents worth...

Ps, any forumites want to invest in a battery manufacturing plant??
 
Thanks for bringing this up @RichJB
Was great to read what Mooch says - he knows about batteries

I just dont understand why the battery manufacturers cant modify their existing designs to improve on things instead of having to redesign an entirely new battery? Surely with their knowledge and experitse they could do it? I.e. Make a new line of batteries based on existing ones that have a few things tweaked - especially for vaping.
 
Personally I think the way forward are battery packs. Let the mod manufacturers create battery packs containing 18650's, 26650's, 20700's, whatever the hell they want, but.. yknow.. in a pack with a connector at the one end, you slide it into your mod and you're done. Obviously you'd need a charger to take the packs too, but that's easy enough.

If that can become the industry standard, then that's a win-win. Battery packs might not be 100% safe but it's a hell of a lot better than working with the batteries themselves.
 
Well I think the manufacturers are totally irresponsible, they should be forced to make a battery that is intrinsically safe, not one that can potentially explode.
If it is rated for a maximum current of (say) 30A then at 36A something inside the battery goes 'puft' one one gets hurt and the battery is thrown away.

Didn't you mess about with batteries when you were a kid I know I did. Wait till a seven year old gets blinded ...................... hopefully something will get done before that happens.

Dave
 
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