Different Chipsets giving different resistances

[DougP]

If I may highjack this thread...it's kind of on similar lines...

Can different modes have different voltage outputs for the same wattage..

I have a Zeus X mesh RTA.

On a Aegis Legend 2 it's shows 0.19 ohms, 46 watts and when its firing it reads 3.03 volts.
If I then put same RTA on the Vaporesso Gen it also shows 0.19 ohms, 46 watts (running in VW mode normal setting). What I can't see is the voltage it is running at.

What is puzzling is that vape is distinctly different between these 2 devices on the same wattage/resistance setting. It's almost like the Gen is running at a higher wattage.

In order to get the vape comparitively the same I set the Aegis to 50 watts which is 3.17 volts on the display and the vape is almost the same then as the Gen at 46 watts 3.03 volts.

Using voltage and setting both mods to the same voltage has the same differential diversity in the vape.

So do different chipsets have different voltage/wattage relationships although according to ohms law they should be the same if the resistance is the same


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[Stranger]

I don't have either of those mods, but I will bet that they may or may not have a pre heat or initial boost setting. I am not saying this is something you should or even can set. I first noticed this on my Puma when I was bedding in a coil and wick. As I was pulsing I could see the Volts changing even though I had a set wattage.

I then did a couple of builds to test this and used a mech build to build a coil and get the W. Then put it on the Puma at the calculated W. The initial boost kicked in every time.

I also questioned the dual versus single battery operation and how the DC_DC operation worked because that also throws out different results.

Also one other thing, where is the V being measured, you may have voltage drop before it gets to the 510 pin.

 

[Intuthu Kagesi]

If I may highjack this thread...it's kind of on similar lines...

Can different modes have different voltage outputs for the same wattage..

I have a Zeus X mesh RTA.

On a Aegis Legend 2 it's shows 0.19 ohms, 46 watts and when its firing it reads 3.03 volts.
If I then put same RTA on the Vaporesso Gen it also shows 0.19 ohms, 46 watts (running in VW mode normal setting). What I can't see is the voltage it is running at.

What is puzzling is that vape is distinctly different between these 2 devices on the same wattage/resistance setting. It's almost like the Gen is running at a higher wattage.

In order to get the vape comparitively the same I set the Aegis to 50 watts which is 3.17 volts on the display and the vape is almost the same then as the Gen at 46 watts 3.03 volts.

Using voltage and setting both mods to the same voltage has the same differential diversity in the vape.

So do different chipsets have different voltage/wattage relationships although according to ohms law they should be the same if the resistance is the same


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Hi Doug,
You have boost and PWM circuitry on most if not all, barring mech mods.
This means that the mods boost converter increases the battery voltage to whatever the designer decided on, (to which there is no "standard maximum voltage", and that voltage is independent of whatever the battery voltage may be). This voltage is then modulated by a pulse width circuit to an effective output voltage, NOT an actual voltage, the actual voltage remains at whatever the boost circuitry provides.

For example; A manufacturer may choose a boost voltage of say 10 Volts, (raised from the batteries 8.4 Volts?), and if, in the same example, you had set your mod for an output voltage of say 6 Volts, the micro controller would adjust the Pulse Width to 60:40, (ie. on for 60% of a period, and off for 40% of the same period), providing you with an effective 6 Volts.

The aforementioned boost circuitry also takes time to get up to it's operating voltage, which most mod manufacturers mention as switching time, and;
The operating frequency of the PWM circuitry too has a part to play in all this, where again, there is no standard, and mod manufacturers use whatever their designers believe is best.

I'm sure you now realise that mech mods and semi-mechs, (mosfet assisted mech mods), don't suffer from the aforementioned power on delays, and provide an actual voltage, which is why a lot of vapers prefer them.

 

[Viper_SA]

Hi Doug,
You have boost and PWM circuitry on most if not all, barring mech mods.
This means that the mods boost converter increases the battery voltage to whatever the designer decided on, (to which there is no "standard maximum voltage", and that voltage is independent of whatever the battery voltage may be). This voltage is then modulated by a pulse width circuit to an effective output voltage, NOT an actual voltage, the actual voltage remains at whatever the boost circuitry provides.

For example; A manufacturer may choose a boost voltage of say 10 Volts, (raised from the batteries 8.4 Volts?), and if, in the same example, you had set your mod for an output voltage of say 6 Volts, the micro controller would adjust the Pulse Width to 60:40, (ie. on for 60% of a period, and off for 40% of the same period), providing you with an effective 6 Volts.

The aforementioned boost circuitry also takes time to get up to it's operating voltage, which most mod manufacturers mention as switching time, and;
The operating frequency of the PWM circuitry too has a part to play in all this, where again, there is no standard, and mod manufacturers use whatever their designers believe is best.

I'm sure you now realise that mech mods and semi-mechs, (mosfet assisted mech mods), don't suffer from the aforementioned power on delays, and provide an actual voltage, which is why a lot of vapers prefer them.

Rated Informative as there is no rating for Greek

 

[DougP]

I don't have either of those mods, but I will bet that they may or may not have a pre heat or initial boost setting. I am not saying this is something you should or even can set. I first noticed this on my Puma when I was bedding in a coil and wick. As I was pulsing I could see the Volts changing even though I had a set wattage.

I then did a couple of builds to test this and used a mech build to build a coil and get the W. Then put it on the Puma at the calculated W. The initial boost kicked in every time.

I also questioned the dual versus single battery operation and how the DC_DC operation worked because that also throws out different results.

Also one other thing, where is the V being measured, you may have voltage drop before it gets to the 510 pin.

I am seeing the voltage as displayed on the screen of the aegis legend. On the Gen I can't see voltage as the screen doesn't display it.


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[DougP]

Hi Doug,
You have boost and PWM circuitry on most if not all, barring mech mods.
This means that the mods boost converter increases the battery voltage to whatever the designer decided on, (to which there is no "standard maximum voltage", and that voltage is independent of whatever the battery voltage may be). This voltage is then modulated by a pulse width circuit to an effective output voltage, NOT an actual voltage, the actual voltage remains at whatever the boost circuitry provides.

For example; A manufacturer may choose a boost voltage of say 10 Volts, (raised from the batteries 8.4 Volts?), and if, in the same example, you had set your mod for an output voltage of say 6 Volts, the micro controller would adjust the Pulse Width to 60:40, (ie. on for 60% of a period, and off for 40% of the same period), providing you with an effective 6 Volts.

The aforementioned boost circuitry also takes time to get up to it's operating voltage, which most mod manufacturers mention as switching time, and;
The operating frequency of the PWM circuitry too has a part to play in all this, where again, there is no standard, and mod manufacturers use whatever their designers believe is best.

I'm sure you now realise that mech mods and semi-mechs, (mosfet assisted mech mods), don't suffer from the aforementioned power on delays, and provide an actual voltage, which is why a lot of vapers prefer them.

Wow okay, so this gets quite complicated.

Lack of knowledge led me to believe that with VW mods there is a standard that they all would somehow be calibrated (or whatever brated) to have the same base levels and output levels, for example, according to ohms law : at the same resistance, or wattage the voltage should be the same.

I kinda saw it like a speedometer in a car, no matter what the make or model of car, 120km/h displayed should be 120km/h in actual as a standard across all manufacturers.

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[Intuthu Kagesi]

Wow okay, so this gets quite complicated.

Lack of knowledge led me to believe that with VW mods there is a standard that they all would somehow be calibrated (or whatever brated) to have the same base levels and output levels, for example, according to ohms law : at the same resistance, or wattage the voltage should be the same.

I kinda saw it like a speedometer in a car, no matter what the make or model of car, 120km/h displayed should be 120km/h in actual as a standard across all manufacturers.

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There are indeed standards and Ohms Law still holds true ... however;
The issues on stable accurate power delivery on our mods are numerous, but primarily hinged on a calculated EFFECTIVE voltage, whose input voltage is subject to manufacturing variances, along with the inability to accurately measure low resistances cost effectively, (refer to my earlier posting on this thread on the challenges of sub ohm measurements).

Incidentally your speedometer analogy holds true ... the rolling diameter of a vehicle tyre shrinks from new to worn out, providing up to a 10% over read error, couple that with a "at best" error of the meter et al and you have a similar scenario of some 10 to 15% over-read

 

[DougP]

There are indeed standards and Ohms Law still holds true ... however;
The issues on stable accurate power delivery on our mods are numerous, but primarily hinged on a calculated EFFECTIVE voltage, whose input voltage is subject to manufacturing variances, along with the inability to accurately measure low resistances cost effectively, (refer to my earlier posting on this thread on the challenges of sub ohm measurements).

Incidentally your speedometer analogy holds true ... the rolling diameter of a vehicle tyre shrinks from new to worn out, providing up to a 10% over read error, couple that with a "at best" error of the meter et al and you have a similar scenario of some 10 to 15% over-read

And so I learn everyday.
Thank you for the detailed feedback.

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[Intuthu Kagesi]

And so I learn everyday.
Thank you for the detailed feedback.

Sent from my LM-G900 using Tapatalk

You're most welcome Doug

I too initially thought that mods were more advanced than they actually are with respect to resistance measurement, and ... I also, (incorrectly), assumed that they simply used PWM on the battery voltage, until I physically plugged an oscilloscope onto a 510 socket and ... surprise ... noted a voltage way higher than the battery voltage

I will add that most mods are not too far shy of miraculous in that they can, and do function with the level of accuracy that they do, certainly so taking into account their price point(s)

 

[DougP]

You're most welcome Doug

I too initially thought that mods were more advanced than they actually are with respect to resistance measurement, and ... I also, (incorrectly), assumed that they simply used PWM on the battery voltage, until I physically plugged an oscilloscope onto a 510 socket and ... surprise ... noted a voltage way higher than the battery voltage

I will add that most mods are not too far shy of miraculous in that they can, and do function with the level of accuracy that they do, certainly so taking into account their price point(s)

Lesson I am learning from this is that one really needs to do some in depth research when buying a mod.
I guess what you see on the surface is not strictly what you get.
I currently have 4 different manufacturers mods and the differences in the vape between them is distinctively different when tested using the same set of batteties and rta at the same wattage.





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[Stranger]

I pointed this out here @DougP

https://www.ecigssa.co.za/a-coil-for-dvarw.t73743/

I like my Dvarw clones, I like my pot mods, NCV2 and MVV II, but I find I have to build to suit each one. So although the tanks are the same I need to build differently for regulated, pot mod or semi mech and as per the thread even individual mods

 

[Viper_SA]

Okay, so I know these aren't exactly the best coils on the market, but here are my findings nonetheless. Decided to throw out the 0.7 ohm coils from @smilelykumeenit for something lower with a bit more oemph. I have a few of those assorted coil sets to try and find my sweet spot again, and my OCD requires that all my DL tanks have the exact same coil, so the fact that there are 6 coils of each and I have 5 tanks works out beautifully and much cheaper than using premium coils to try and find a sweet spot.

I decided to start out with these Vapefly coils (saving the Coilology coils for later as they seem of much better quality to my untrained eyes)



First up is the REV GTS mod with the coil installed in an OG Zeus single coil, and as can be seen it is spot on, on the advertised resistance of 0.45 Ohm



Next up the same coil on the Augvape V200 mod. Coil installed in a Serpent Elevate this time and giving the biggest deviation from advertised resistance showing 0.38 Ohm. Could this have something to do with the tank AND the mod, or is this down to mod only? Who knows



Then comes the Geekvape Nova, also in an OG Zeus showing 0.42 Ohm. Only a 0.03 Ohm deviation which I can live with.



Last but not least, also in two OG Zeus tanks on the Hohm Slice mods showing 0.43 and 0.42 Ohm respectively. Also a deviation I can live with.





As can be seen the biggest outlier is the Augvape V200. Not sure how much the fact that it's with a different tank influences this, but to me it shouldn't make a difference....

I will be doing the same comparison tomorrow night with all 4 of my Expromizer V4's on different mods. All running the White Collar MTL coils which claim to be 0.75 Ohm, but the legs do need to be bent open for the way the coil is installed. So watch this space tomorrow if you will.

 

[Timwis]

Okay, so I know these aren't exactly the best coils on the market, but here are my findings nonetheless. Decided to throw out the 0.7 ohm coils from @smilelykumeenit for something lower with a bit more oemph. I have a few of those assorted coil sets to try and find my sweet spot again, and my OCD requires that all my DL tanks have the exact same coil, so the fact that there are 6 coils of each and I have 5 tanks works out beautifully and much cheaper than using premium coils to try and find a sweet spot.

I decided to start out with these Vapefly coils (saving the Coilology coils for later as they seem of much better quality to my untrained eyes)

View attachment 238971

First up is the REV GTS mod with the coil installed in an OG Zeus single coil, and as can be seen it is spot on, on the advertised resistance of 0.45 Ohm

View attachment 238972

Next up the same coil on the Augvape V200 mod. Coil installed in a Serpent Elevate this time and giving the biggest deviation from advertised resistance showing 0.38 Ohm. Could this have something to do with the tank AND the mod, or is this down to mod only? Who knows

View attachment 238973

Then comes the Geekvape Nova, also in an OG Zeus showing 0.42 Ohm. Only a 0.03 Ohm deviation which I can live with.

View attachment 238974

Last but not least, also in two OG Zeus tanks on the Hohm Slice mods showing 0.43 and 0.42 Ohm respectively. Also a deviation I can live with.

View attachment 238975

View attachment 238976

As can be seen the biggest outlier is the Augvape V200. Not sure how much the fact that it's with a different tank influences this, but to me it shouldn't make a difference....

I will be doing the same comparison tomorrow night with all 4 of my Expromizer V4's on different mods. All running the White Collar MTL coils which claim to be 0.75 Ohm, but the legs do need to be bent open for the way the coil is installed. So watch this space tomorrow if you will.

0.42ohm at 35W on the single coil Zeus was how I religiously vaped by choice until the latest MTL revolution came along!

 

[Viper_SA]

Next up the same coil on the Augvape V200 mod. Coil installed in a Serpent Elevate this time and giving the biggest deviation from advertised resistance showing 0.38 Ohm. Could this have something to do with the tank AND the mod, or is this down to mod only? Who knows

Actually just swopped around a Zeus and the Serpent between the Nova and V200. It's the V200 mod that gives that 0.07 Ohm difference. That's getting pretty close to 0.1 Ohm, which makes quite a difference to me...

 

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

I physically plugged an oscilloscope onto a 510 socket and ... surprise ... noted a voltage way higher than the battery voltage

You should find the buck/boost stuff interesting :

 

[Intuthu Kagesi]

You should find the buck/boost stuff interesting :

It's a great video, however what he says of buck converters, (or PWM) is not entirely correct.
The calculation of a suitable capacitor to smooth out the average voltage is; C = I / (2 x f x Vpp) ...
Now a quick calculation of typical operation PWM frequency and say a 10% duty cycle reveals that you would require a moer of big capacitor, (bigger than your mod), so mod manufacturers don't bother.
What this means is that the AVERAGE voltage is indeed what is claimed, however the peak voltage and the peak current flow is in fact the battery voltage less any circuitry losses ... which is scary stuff!
Anyone doubting this should place an oscilloscope across their 510 connector whilst their mod is under load, and take a gander

 

[Viper_SA]

As promised. Some more comparisons. All with White Collar MTL coils



Checked these on three Aspire Mixx mods and one Foxy One mod. There is one that shows way out at times on the Mixx, but then reads correctly on my Pico 21700. I have to say that particular Expromizer V4 does at times muck around. Suddenly showing "no atomizer" etc. Then I unscrew it, screw it back and it goes again. Sometimes several times a day, sometimes like once a week, so I don't read too much into that one odd-one-out reading. What I did notice by chance today is that at 20W and 0.98 Ohm se Foxy One should be firing at 4.4V approximately. It actually fires at 5.2V and then comes down to around 4.8V or thereabouts. Must a a chip boost thing? But still firing at higher voltage than expected by what calculators show it should be. It does that with multiple Expro's, so not an RTA issue.









As can be seen, two Mixx mods and the Foxy One shows just about the same reading, just that one Expro that spoils the party, but the vape isn't markedly different at all, so I live with it.

What is interesting is that these coils are my favorite MTL coils currently, and show ±0.75 Ohm with both legs pointing in the same direction. I certainly didn't expect the resistance to jump up to 1 Ohm just by opening up the legs so they are horizontal. In fact, I would have thought the resistance would drop due to less material? Or do I have it all backwards?

 

[Intuthu Kagesi]

As promised. Some more comparisons. All with White Collar MTL coils

Checked these on three Aspire Mixx mods and one Foxy One mod. There is one that shows way out at times on the Mixx, but then reads correctly on my Pico 21700. I have to say that particular Expromizer V4 does at times muck around. Suddenly showing "no atomizer" etc. Then I unscrew it, screw it back and it goes again. Sometimes several times a day, sometimes like once a week, so I don't read too much into that one odd-one-out reading. What I did notice by chance today is that at 20W and 0.98 Ohm se Foxy One should be firing at 4.4V approximately. It actually fires at 5.2V and then comes down to around 4.8V or thereabouts. Must a a chip boost thing? But still firing at higher voltage than expected by what calculators show it should be. It does that with multiple Expro's, so not an RTA issue.

As can be seen, two Mixx mods and the Foxy One shows just about the same reading, just that one Expro that spoils the party, but the vape isn't markedly different at all, so I live with it.

What is interesting is that these coils are my favorite MTL coils currently, and show ±0.75 Ohm with both legs pointing in the same direction. I certainly didn't expect the resistance to jump up to 1 Ohm just by opening up the legs so they are horizontal. In fact, I would have thought the resistance would drop due to less material? Or do I have it all backwards?

Your assumptions are indeed correct Viper_SA;
The static resistance of a conductor will indeed be lower if said conductor, (coil), was shortened, however you are outside of the accurate measurement ability(ies) of your mod, which everyone seems to have noted, however no one is acknowledging , and if there are any other Electrical / Electronic Engineers on this forum? they can can chip in and add to the following;

As Electronic Components go, 1% is considered a special order resistor, to which most production resistors are typically a 5% tolerance, meaning the internal components of your mod, (assuming they are indeed special order components), are at best, much worse than the 0.1% accuracy that it seems Vapers expect ... however most mods are mass produced in China {nuff said}

The above statement does not take into account stacked errors, or the issues I raised earlier with respect to measuring resistances below one ohm, (aka four wire measurement), along with the thermocouple effect of dissimilar metals used in a mod's construction, (which at best would involve at least solder, and is real inside your mod).

I could wax on for hours and include elements such as your mods respective Analogue to Digital Converter, which is expected to measure current via a mass manufactured low value high wattage resistor at the bottom end of a typically 16 bit processor architecture, meaning it's function is typically clamped to a maximum of 8 bits and yet you're expecting a resolution accuracy better than it's architecture allows for, namely a mere 3.92mV accuracy which excludes all the aforementioned

Bottom line ... Your mod's voltage, resistance and power readings are indicative only ... If you do wish to build accurately, then you will require a good
Ohm meter, (NOT multimeter), capable of the range, resolution and accuracy you wish to build to ... something a lot of Mech Mod Vapers do anyway.