Recipe Etiquette

[method1]

Strawvana

TFA Strawberry          1.5
TFA Strawberry Ripe     1.5
TFA VBIC                4
TFA Marshmallow         0.5
Cap VC1                 1.25
Cap Sweet Cream         0.8
Inawera Raspberry       0.4

That's very cool of you Mike!

After a recipe I posted got made into a commercial juice by someone other than me, I've been pretty reluctant to post more, but such is the whacky world of DIY

 

[rogue zombie]

That's very cool of you Mike!

After a recipe I posted got made into a commercial juice by someone other than me, I've been pretty reluctant to post more, but such is the whacky world of DIY

What recipe?


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[Viper_SA]

That's very cool of you Mike!

After a recipe I posted got made into a commercial juice by someone other than me, I've been pretty reluctant to post more, but such is the whacky world of DIY

If I may comment on this. I don't think anyone that posts in our diy threads bas any expectancy of exclusivety. If anyone wants to take a recipe I shared and go through all the extra effort of tweaking, labelling, bottling and marketing, then let them do it. I share stuff on the diy threads because I enjoy mixing and playing around with flavors.

 

[moonunit]

If I may comment on this. I don't think anyone that posts in our diy threads bas any expectancy of exclusivety. If anyone wants to take a recipe I shared and go through all the extra effort of tweaking, labelling, bottling and marketing, then let them do it. I share stuff on the diy threads because I enjoy mixing and playing around with flavors.

I am with @method1 on this, not that any of my recipes have been taken or I think they will be, I don't think I am a good enough DIY'er, but I have spent many hours mixing, testing and tweaking recipes until it is bang on what I am looking for.

If a commercial mixer(not saying they do or will, this is all hypothetical) comes along, trawls the DIY thread and see's something good, they test it and sell your hard work to turn a decent profit, doesn't seem right. But then again what is right in this world.

I myself might not have any inclination to sell liquid, at the moment, but this might change in a few months? A few months ago I never imagined myself DIY'ing my own liquids...


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[Viper_SA]

I am with @method1 on this, not that any of my recipes have been taken or I think they will be, I don't think I am a good enough DIY'er, but I have spent many hours mixing, testing and tweaking recipes until it is bang on what I am looking for.

If a commercial mixer(not saying they do or will, this is all hypothetical) comes along, trawls the DIY thread and see's something good, they test it and sell your hard work to turn a decent profit, doesn't seem right. But then again what is right in this world.

I myself might not have any inclination to sell liquid, at the moment, but this might change in a few months? A few months ago I never imagined myself DIY'ing my own liquids...


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I hear what you're saying, and I agree, but posting on a public forum is kind of giving it away. Like putting a child up for adoption and then being upset when he grows up to be a millionaire and his adoptive parents live like kings while you suffer in poverty. I'm not saying any vendors have taken recipes from diy sections, but I'm pretty certain that some have taken ideas from this or other forums' diy threads and developed what is new and happening. Just stating that some people will try to make money off a hobby, while others don't care about it. For me personally, hobbies stop being fun once it's work.

 

[GregF]

I hear what you're saying, and I agree, but posting on a public forum is kind of giving it away. Like putting a child up for adoption and then being upset when he grows up to be a millionaire and his adoptive parents live like kings while you suffer in poverty. I'm not saying any vendors have taken recipes from diy sections, but I'm pretty certain that some have taken ideas from this or other forums' diy threads and developed what is new and happening. Just stating that some people will try to make money off a hobby, while others don't care about it. For me personally, hobbies stop being fun once it's work.

I must just add this and hopefully we will not clutter up @Andre thread much longer. If you post a recipe online, on a public forum, you can't be upset if someone makes the same thing and sells it. If you didn't want that to happen then don't post it. I agree it is a bit of a ***** that someone copied it in the first place without giving credit to the originator, but shit happens. Some people just have no morals. Don't put it out there if it is not a freebie/give-away for anybody to do with it as they please.
I think we all DIY because it is fun to play with different flavors and it is cheaper than commercial juice.
Any respectable commercial mixer will/should not copy something here. They will most likely have something unique that they want to market.
The more DIY recipes posted on these forums and the more people that get into DIY will put the commercial mixer under pressure to produce something better. There is a big enough market, and it is getting bigger, of people who are not inclined to DIY and just want to purchase a juice they like.
(just my 2c little rant)

[edit] funny that it edits out b1tch but leaves in shit

 

[Mike]

I must just add this and hopefully we will not clutter up @Andre thread much longer. If you post a recipe online, on a public forum, you can't be upset if someone makes the same thing and sells it. If you didn't want that to happen then don't post it. I agree it is a bit of a ***** that someone copied it in the first place without giving credit to the originator, but shit happens. Some people just have no morals. Don't put it out there if it is not a freebie/give-away for anybody to do with it as they please.

Aaaand that's exactly why I almost never post recipes.

 

[moonunit]

@Viper_SA brilliant analogy and very good way to put it

But this is what limits people sharing their recipes, in the beginning I shared plenty recipes hoping a fellow DIY'er would enjoy it, but after I realized how much work goes into producing a truly good recipe I am now reluctant to share now because of those one or two unscrupulous vendors, or at least the potential of a recipe being "stolen".

Basically what I am getting at is that most of the very experienced and talented DIY'ers are reluctant to share some of their truly amazing recipes because of all this and DIY'ers as a community are ultimately losing out.


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[Andre]

@Viper_SA brilliant analogy and very good way to put it

But this is what limits people sharing their recipes, in the beginning I shared plenty recipes hoping a fellow DIY'er would enjoy it, but after I realized how much work goes into producing a truly good recipe I am now reluctant to share now because of those one or two unscrupulous vendors, or at least the potential of a recipe being "stolen".

Basically what I am getting at is that most of the very experienced and talented DIY'ers are reluctant to share some of their truly amazing recipes because of all this and DIY'ers as a community are ultimately losing out.


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It is a pity and a problem many DIYers the world over struggle with I read. As I feel now, I would share regardless as I would not want to let my fellow DIYers be disadvantaged because of this. But then I have not made an original yet. Still learning, trawling the Internet deep and wide and making a lot of testers and sharing the great ones. Whether I will ever try or succeed to make a truly original recipe is a good question. It is much like cooking, which I love and use recipes for, maybe with a little tweak here or there, but the new, original recipes I leave to the professionals. Fortunately for me there are still some very talented DIYers prepared to share their recipes - I must just be prepared to find them.

 

[Glytch]

When you post recipes add the Creative Commons License. That allows all to share and use but not use for commercial gain.

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[Huffapuff]

I would love to believe that no fellow DIYers would steal someone's recipe for profit as I think the DIY community is an open and supportive one. But the simple truth is the internet = pirates

I wonder how many of the premium juices out there are actually knock offs of DIY recipes. A DIYer wouldn't know because he doesn't buy premium juices now And a small tweak of 0.5% to a flavour would probably be enough to get around any copyright issues if such things existed!

But to be fair - how many of us make clone recipes? So I don't think a DIYer can really point fingers now hey?

 

[Soutie]

I wonder how many of the premium juices out there are actually knock offs of DIY recipes. A DIYer wouldn't know because he doesn't buy premium juices now And a small tweak of 0.5% to a flavour would probably be enough to get around any copyright issues if such things existed!

This is exactly what it boils down to. It becomes very difficult to separate knowledge and recipes. When is a recipe a copy and at what point does it become your own?

If I were to make a strawberry ice-cream for example, through knowledge gained off others and reading I have a pretty good idea what would work, as much as has been gained off my own tests. I for example know that TPA strawberry and TPA VBIC work well together because of mustard milk. So if I use those two together with a third element, say Cap Sweet strawberry to add complexity am I stealing a recipe? would it be fair cause this is from knowledge I have gained? Is it only my recipe if i don't use TFA VBIC and strawberry together because someone did it first?

Perhaps I have made cheesecakes countless times while DIYing and now know exactly how a base is made, maybe a small tweak to my liking but the concept I read somewhere god alone knows how long ago. Is it wrong to make that cheesecake base for a commercial juice? Should I come up with a brand new base?

Disclaimer: I have no intention to make commercial Juice

 

[rogue zombie]

I would love to believe that no fellow DIYers would steal someone's recipe for profit as I think the DIY community is an open and supportive one. But the simple truth is the internet = pirates

I wonder how many of the premium juices out there are actually knock offs of DIY recipes. A DIYer wouldn't know because he doesn't buy premium juices now And a small tweak of 0.5% to a flavour would probably be enough to get around any copyright issues if such things existed!

But to be fair - how many of us make clone recipes? So I don't think a DIYer can really point fingers now hey?

Just one point on this - if you make clone recipes, you are not in anway stealing (for the lack of a better term).

Clone recipes are what people think or deduce a juice to be.

If I happen to figure out how to make, or immitate, a certain commercial juice, I stole nothing. I worked it out. And if I want to share my recipe, I do not believe I am doing anything wrong.

This is what I have come to believe.

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[incredible_hullk]

My 2c is that I think with the advent of the internet and information so easily available this very issue has become an issue across society as a whole...just look at the number of IP infringement cases. My view is that it boils down to ethics and how each person feels abt business practices...in my value system it is theft to troll DIY recipes in order to make commercial juice but to another it may be acceptable and its ok, each man to himself. I too have no intention to market juice and do it for cost effectiveness and believe it or not stress relief...for me this is as good as cooking!

The 2nd issue of cloning..I dnt consider theft if made for personal use...its your interpretation of the flavour profiles you have had in the past...

 

[incredible_hullk]

I also believe as DIYers if we share recipes its in the public domain...and we learn from each other

 

[Huffapuff]

This is exactly what it boils down to. It becomes very difficult to separate knowledge and recipes. When is a recipe a copy and at what point does it become your own?

If I were to make a strawberry ice-cream for example, through knowledge gained off others and reading I have a pretty good idea what would work, as much as has been gained off my own tests. I for example know that TPA strawberry and TPA VBIC work well together because of mustard milk. So if I use those two together with a third element, say Cap Sweet strawberry to add complexity am I stealing a recipe? would it be fair cause this is from knowledge I have gained? Is it only my recipe if i don't use TFA VBIC and strawberry together because someone did it first?

Perhaps I have made cheesecakes countless times while DIYing and now know exactly how a base is made, maybe a small tweak to my liking but the concept I read somewhere god alone knows how long ago. Is it wrong to make that cheesecake base for a commercial juice? Should I come up with a brand new base?

Disclaimer: I have no intention to make commercial Juice

I agree completely here - all I've learnt of DIYing has been read online. Sure I can experiment and figure things out for myself - but why reinvent the wheel? Often I will work with an element of a recipe that someone has posted online and then tweak it a bit to suit my taste.

Just one point on this - if you make clone recipes, you are not in anway stealing (for the lack of a better term).

Clone recipes are what people think or deduce a juice to be.

If I happen to figure out how to make, or immitate, a certain commercial juice, I stole nothing. I worked it out. And if I want to share my recipe, I do not believe I am doing anything wrong.

This is what I have come to believe.

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I wasn't being entirely serious in saying a clone is stealing - but you've gotta admit it heads towards a grey area. That being said, creating a clone is bloody difficult and I have the utmost respect for those that can do it accurately. But I do agree with you in that clones are people's interpretations of premium recipes. And again, I've learnt a lot about flavour combinations from the better clone recipes.

My 2c is that I think with the advent of the internet and information so easily available this very issue has become an issue across society as a whole...just look at the number of IP infringement cases. My view is that it boils down to ethics and how each person feels abt business practices...in my value system it is theft to troll DIY recipes in order to make commercial juice but to another it may be acceptable and its ok, each man to himself. I too have no intention to market juice and do it for cost effectiveness and believe it or not stress relief...for me this is as good as cooking!

The 2nd issue of cloning..I dnt consider theft if made for personal use...its your interpretation of the flavour profiles you have had in the past...

This is what DIY boils down to in my opinion - we're trying to find a more cost effective way of supporting our vaping habits. However, if someone was to try to make money from someone else's recipe then I hope karma will come along and klap them in the future!

I think the DIY community is an example of what the internet should really be used for - an open exchange of information and a sharing of knowledge that benefits all involved. I love how some of the OGs share their creations with the rest of us, and how we in return share our work with our fellow mixologists. It makes us all better which in turn means we're all vaping better juices

 

[Andre]

When you post recipes add the Creative Commons License. That allows all to share and use but not use for commercial gain.

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How do I get the code in here - say I want to use it in the first post to make all recipes posted in this thread subject to the terms of that license. The code is here.

 

[Ezekiel]

I believe this topic has been handled a number of times, and the same general outcome (on here, Reddit, podcasts - wherever) is that the people who DIY are in a different market than the people who buy, with surprisingly small overlap. So yeah - it feels bad if someone markets a recipe, or even if someone clones it - but it doesn't have that much of a significant effect on the profits of e-mixologists. I read on Reddit once of some guys who intentionally leaked a recipe to see whether it would affect the sales of that recipe, and sales pretty much kept going as they were.

In fact, I would venture that, like the open-source movement, or even like publicly funded academia, the realm of DIY (posting and exchanging recipes) does so much for the entire e-juice industry as a whole than if it was a closed, private and patented realm. DIYers post recipes, flavour combinations, concentrate reviews, and all of that filters through the commercial sector which benefits everybody. Accomplished DIYers who want to profit from their creations (which is definitely not everyone) have a big stepping stone into the market already - any well-known DIYer on this forum alone would have a bigger market when they start their own juice line because of their DIY history. Or alternatively, make money related to the DIY scene in the first place, like ENYAWREKLAW. And finally, when guys like @Mike share their commercial recipes with the DIY community, it completes the entire circle and solidifies the relationship between the DIY and commercial sector.

(BTW, I totally missed it when it happened - good on you @Mike, pretty damn awesome).

NotCharlesManson (the guy who created Strawberry Shortcake Bar ) once walked into a shop and met a guy who claimed to have created Strawberry Shortcake Bar. NotCharlesManson then asked him, "But NotCharlesManson created that juice" and the guy replied, "Yes, I am NotCharlesManson"... pretty insane, but there will always be guys like that, and until they actually have a significant influence on the market they will just be a small annoyance of the entire DIY scene...

 

[rogue zombie]

I wasn't being entirely serious in saying a clone is stealing - but you've gotta admit it heads towards a grey area. That being said, creating a clone is bloody difficult and I have the utmost respect for those that can do it accurately. But I do agree with you in that clones are people's interpretations of premium recipes. And again, I've learnt a lot about flavour combinations from the better clone recipes.

Yip, I certainly agree on the grey area.

I suppose if I did happen to work out a retailers 'prized bread n butter' recipe, I probably would feel bad to share it. But I would definitely have no problem making it for myself.

 

[Mike]

NotCharlesManson (the guy who created Strawberry Shortcake Bar ) once walked into a shop and met a guy who claimed to have created Strawberry Shortcake Bar. NotCharlesManson then asked him, "But NotCharlesManson created that juice" and the guy replied, "Yes, I am NotCharlesManson"... pretty insane, but there will always be guys like that, and until they actually have a significant influence on the market they will just be a small annoyance of the entire DIY scene...

See again, this is the problem. We can debate this as much as we want, but I guarantee, after a vendor finds a recipe (s)he shared online, being sold for profit and personal gain, they will be far less likely to release more. It doesn't matter if you see it as an adopted child or a seed or some other useless analogy. I used to be happy to share recipes online until I found out just how quickly this sort of thing can happen. We've just seen something similar happen with @method1, who shared an unreasonable amount of his knowledge with the members of this forum and ended up getting taken advantage of.


[Rant]I don't care if you add 0.5% sweetener and then call it your own, I have spent a significant portion of my life for the past 2 years, working on mixing. It's not fair to release something for public use and a small opportunistic minority goes out and screws vendors for their own gain.

@Vapington had experience with something similar recently, I spotted someone on Facebook trying to advertise and sell a Trinity clone. I mean come on, that's despicable. Of course I am biased, but we have honest, hardworking mixologists locally that are struggling to make ends meet because everyone is trying to make a quick buck by reselling recipes they found online for cheap. It's easy to look at the successful guys and get the wrong idea, but the mid-tier mixologist has an incredibly challenging task ahead of him/her.

It essentially becomes similar to the photography market. Cost of entry is relatively low, some provide a low quality service (or product) at a low price, which negatively impacts the people that have dedicated their time and effort to honing their craft.[/Rant]

 

[Glytch]

How do I get the code in here - say I want to use it in the first post to make all recipes posted in this thread subject to the terms of that license. The code is here.

Some forum editors (that we use to type posts) have an "Edit Source" option. You would need this option to add the html code. Not sure if the admins can enable this.

 

[Ezekiel]

See again, this is the problem. We can debate this as much as we want, but I guarantee, after a vendor finds a recipe (s)he shared online, being sold for profit and personal gain, they will be far less likely to release more. It doesn't matter if you see it as an adopted child or a seed or some other useless analogy. I used to be happy to share recipes online until I found out just how quickly this sort of thing can happen. We've just seen something similar happen with @method1, who shared an unreasonable amount of his knowledge with the members of this forum and ended up getting taken advantage of.


[Rant]I don't care if you add 0.5% sweetener and then call it your own, I have spent a significant portion of my life for the past 2 years, working on mixing. It's not fair to release something for public use and a small opportunistic minority goes out and screws vendors for their own gain.

@Vapington had experience with something similar recently, I spotted someone on Facebook trying to advertise and sell a Trinity clone. I mean come on, that's despicable. Of course I am biased, but we have honest, hardworking mixologists locally that are struggling to make ends meet because everyone is trying to make a quick buck by reselling recipes they found online for cheap. It's easy to look at the successful guys and get the wrong idea, but the mid-tier mixologist has an incredibly challenging task ahead of him/her.

It essentially becomes similar to the photography market. Cost of entry is relatively low, some provide a low quality service (or product) at a low price, which negatively impacts the people that have dedicated their time and effort to honing their craft.[/Rant]

I know it feels super bad man... but either the DIY scene or the commercial juice scene would've been dead a long time ago if juice cloning/public recipe marketing had a very significant impact. Yet the DiY scene is still very much alive, new mixologists are still popping up and existing mixologists still share older recipes.

The only two concellations are a) that, by developing new, original recipes, you are continuously honing yourself as a mixologist and should be able to continuously come up with new recipes, whereas the free-loader is bound to others. This is a marketable skill and one that will always give an edge to someone like you. b) This is luckily still a relative close-knit community, and boycotters should not get the same market share as talented mixologists.

But that said - it still sucks balls.

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[Andre]

Some forum editors (that we use to type posts) have an "Edit Source" option. You would need this option to add the html code. Not sure if the admins can enable this.

We do have an insert code button (under the "+" sign at the top of the reply box), which also give an html option. Tried that, but does not work.

 

[Glytch]

We do have an insert code button (under the "+" sign at the top of the reply box), which also give an html option. Tried that, but does not work.

Yeah that's to insert formatted code for display. It does not actually "run" or interpret the code.

 

[Mike]

I know it feels super bad man... but either the DIY scene or the commercial juice scene would've been dead a long time ago if juice cloning/public recipe marketing had a very significant impact. Yet the DiY scene is still very much alive, new mixologists are still popping up and existing mixologists still share older recipes.

The only two concellations are a) that, by developing new, original recipes, you are continuously honing yourself as a mixologist and should be able to continuously come up with new recipes, whereas the free-loader is bound to others. This is a marketable skill and one that will always give an edge to someone like you. b) This is luckily still a relative close-knit community, and boycotters should not get the same market share as talented mixologists.

But that said - it still sucks balls.

Absolutely. However we both know the implementation thereof isn't that simple The market is a complicated one, especially with the saturation we're seeing now. There are loads of variables that influence these things - my point was that this sort of behavior, which is unavoidable, makes it very challenging for vendors to contribute to the DIY community.