How can we self-regulate before the government steps in

[Neill Powell]

Hi all,

This has been bothering me for some time, and within the circles I have been talking, albeit quietly, we seem to be facing an issue of regulations that we ourselves do not even know we need to comply to.

As a leap, I think we should start a discussion of how this part of the industry is going to regulate itself, specifically in terms of e-juice!

The USA is facing great issues, while not immediately a concern, as we all know it's been shelved for 2020, or 2021, regulation is going to come. The EU has already crucified juice-makers and tank manufacturers, and we're next. This will hit us all hard. SA government has a habit of adopting certain standards, simply because they exist in other places, and that may spell doom for e-juice manufacturers, if they attempt to enforce that kind of strategy as a copy and paste exercise.
i have been musing along the idea of 4 principle thoughts for at least proposing some form of draft control that we could adopt, the basic premise is:

1. Protect the consumer
2. Protect the manufacturer
3. Ensure taxation where necessarily due.
4. Ensure transparency and accountability across these 3 premises to keep the system honest, self accountable and legal.

I am working on a "document" if you will, that from my viewpoint, the idea is a proposal, trying to take all stakeholders into play and seeing both the positive sides and the negative sides of this to enter into public debate.

If we can get our shit together before it becomes an issue... we may stand a chance!

Your thoughts? (apologies for the misspelled tag, dunno how to edit them, yet!).

As always, Vape strong, and live long.

 

[MixeR]

Hi Neill

I agree we should get prepared for was will eventually come.
I have been mixing my own juice for a while now and I have a store interested in stocking my brand.

I would like to get my juice lab certified and I am not sure how to go about doing all of that.

So I am looking for people who know where I can go to get it done and what I would need to do.

Thank you for any info

 

[RichJB]

Every industry claims it can self-regulate and no govt ever believes them, with good reason. Should VW have been allowed to regulate its own vehicle emissions in the US? These things don't work. Govt is not going to allow the vaping industry to write the vaping regulations, any more than it would allow the gun manufacturers and gun shops to write the country's gun laws. Regulation is a "public good" service, it cannot be undertaken credibly by any party who has a profit incentive.

 

[Comrad Juju]

Hi all,

This has been bothering me for some time, and within the circles I have been talking, albeit quietly, we seem to be facing an issue of regulations that we ourselves do not even know we need to comply to.

As a leap, I think we should start a discussion of how this part of the industry is going to regulate itself, specifically in terms of e-juice!

The USA is facing great issues, while not immediately a concern, as we all know it's been shelved for 2020, or 2021, regulation is going to come. The EU has already crucified juice-makers and tank manufacturers, and we're next. This will hit us all hard. SA government has a habit of adopting certain standards, simply because they exist in other places, and that may spell doom for e-juice manufacturers, if they attempt to enforce that kind of strategy as a copy and paste exercise.
i have been musing along the idea of 4 principle thoughts for at least proposing some form of draft control that we could adopt, the basic premise is:

1. Protect the consumer
2. Protect the manufacturer
3. Ensure taxation where necessarily due.
4. Ensure transparency and accountability across these 3 premises to keep the system honest, self accountable and legal.

I am working on a "document" if you will, that from my viewpoint, the idea is a proposal, trying to take all stakeholders into play and seeing both the positive sides and the negative sides of this to enter into public debate.

If we can get our shit together before it becomes an issue... we may stand a chance!

Your thoughts? (apologies for the misspelled tag, dunno how to edit them, yet!).

As always, Vape strong, and live long.

Please don't send it to anyone in government.

It might be enough to cause them to focus on the industry. I'm happy paying VAT on my imports. not in the mood to be taxed exstra on it or potential bans like other countries

Sorry just saying. Understand your main focus is people in the industry. Just don't want to get screwed by government because of you guys starting to take precautions.

It is awesome news that you guys are ready to plan ahead though.


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[Mida Khan]

My question is what should the legal age limit be for vaping?

We don't want youngsters casually or socially vaping nicotine but we especially don't want them on the smokes!

 

[Comrad Juju]

My question is what should the legal age limit be for vaping?

We don't want youngsters casually or socially vaping nicotine but we especially don't want them on the smokes!

Isn't it already 18? I know vendors in Cape Town sells to 18+ as far as I have seen.

Guys like Juicy Joes actually doesn't even allow 18 year olds with id's to proving they are 18 in school clothes to purchase from them.

Needs to be in causal wear.

In my opinion that's pretty good practice


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[Mida Khan]

Isn't it already 18? I know vendors in Cape Town sells to 18+ as far as I have seen.

Guys like Juicy Joes actually doesn't even allow 18 year olds with id's to proving they are 18 in school clothes to purchase from them.

Needs to be in causal wear.

In my opinion that's pretty good practice


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Yes it's supposed to be 18 but I have seen a youngster as young as 14 in school uniform vaping. When questioned he replied that his older cousin gave him the device and he gets liquid from him too.

 

[RichJB]

Having laws doesn't stop people from breaking them. I'm pretty sure 18 will remain the legal age limit for smoking and will be the age limit for vaping too.

 

[Mida Khan]

No cartoon characters/animations to be used on packaging of liquids so it doesn't appeal to minors

 

[Comrad Juju]

Yes it's supposed to be 18 but I have seen a youngster as young as 14 in school uniform vaping. When questioned he replied that his older cousin gave him the device and he gets liquid from him too.

I don't really think there is a way to stop something like that.

Looking back I somehow started smoking back when I was 14.

The only way to reduce the risk of youngsters smoking will be to keep it less attractive for kids. I actually questioned a vender on this forum selling minion vape gear.


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[RenaldoRheeder]

I don't really think there is a way to stop something like that.

Looking back I somehow started smoking back when I was 14.

The only way to reduce the risk of youngsters smoking will be to keep it less attractive for kids. I actually questioned a vender on this forum selling minion vape gear.


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Then again, was smoking attractive at age 14 (I can relate - I was a bit younger when I started smoking). Think back to why you started smoking. For me it was cool and I was one of the boys - a big thing. Still the most stupid thing I ever did - it was not even enjoyable to smoke at the time. Vaping has a similar image - it is so cool, but at least it is not nearly as harmful as smoking. Age restriction is not nearly as effective as one would want it to be.




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[Andre]

Hi Neill

I agree we should get prepared for was will eventually come.
I have been mixing my own juice for a while now and I have a store interested in stocking my brand.

I would like to get my juice lab certified and I am not sure how to go about doing all of that.

So I am looking for people who know where I can go to get it done and what I would need to do.

Thank you for any info

Most welcome to the forum. Feel free to introduce yourself at the end of this thread.
For juice certification check out this forum.

 

[MixeR]

Most welcome to the forum. Feel free to introduce yourself at the end of this thread.
For juice certification check out this forum.

Thanks Andre

Really appreciate it

 

[Mauritz]

Hi @Neill Powell ,

Please have a look at our subforum, we have discussed this at great length over the last couple of weeks. For us the road to self regulation is showing our commitment to quality and safety. If we can show (by audit) that we understand our processes so as to control the product quality and safety we will show that we take responsibility for our products and the health and safety of the consumers.

On a strategic level this means ISO 14644-1 and GMP certification.
On a quality level this means batch testing ( GSMS) e-liquids for assurance of the quality output
and finally on an educational level as to what is harmful, and how to we implement a harm reduction strategy.

Please let me know if you have questions on our views.

Regards,

 

[Waine]

LOl. Human nature dictates that if you tell someone they cannot use a substance unless they are 18, or 21, they will want to know why the substance is restricted and they WILL try it.

But in a legal sense, I am all for proper and realistic regulations on vaping, to keep the industry clean and honest. For example, we don't want a "Kitchen Chemist" making our e-juice and selling it to vendors with a nice label on. Especially if no one has inspected the premises where the juice is made.


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[Neill Powell]

Thanks for the Epic feedback!! Considerably impressed with The Vape Merchant on their impressive (10/10 from my side), accreditation. But, as MixeR pointed out... the hows and the what's are still murky waters..

A few notes i have added on my "document" is, based on an observation I made from reading medicine bottles as well as a simple Simba chips packet:

1. Expiry
2. Lot/batch number (so.damn.important)
3. Some form of special number indicating something else.

I was actually quite happy about the response here and proceeded to talk about it to a few fellow-vapers (sadly, in the smoking section), and the general consensus was , after asking them qustions, was, almost outright prompted with the following:

1. Who actually makes the juice?
2. Where, is this stuff made, more importantly, how?
3. Are any nasties in it?
4. Who checks this, if say the nicotine was a bad batch?

These are real-people questions. How does a brand say, Capital Vapes, or Wicked Wicks have any real, solid, steadfast method of being able to prove their juice is A-OK, at least under current standards, and who enforces these standards? and not just for one vendor. Where is the standard for all... Or are we all selling mampoer... Because... well, to the non-smoker, it REALLY DOES look like moonshine, because, dear suppliers... WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE?

And this is my argument.

TVM has a great thread about their lab, but who, what, how many? Who is certified and guaranteed BASED, at least in the current information (and yes their tests do cover a considerable set of relevant ppm verifications).

I don't have the intention or even remotely (god forbid), want to bankrupt the current juice-makers. But we all know, right now, it is a good and quite lucrative business model... Why not step up the value for the customer? Get in line to get your product verified as safe (we hope they are!!) and proudly display a sticker, (mmm... hologram would be nice) on your lable to actually prove that YOUR JUICE is totally cool!

We can all love Granny's new stew, but when she says she "adds a few 'erbs form the cool Rastafarian from next door", we wonder about if we really want that stew any more...

 

[Neill Powell]

Please don't send it to anyone in government.

It might be enough to cause them to focus on the industry. I'm happy paying VAT on my imports. not in the mood to be taxed exstra on it or potential bans like other countries

Sorry just saying. Understand your main focus is people in the industry. Just don't want to get screwed by government because of you guys starting to take precautions.

It is awesome news that you guys are ready to plan ahead though.


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No, i totally understand. But the DAY it happens.... The EU is boned. Properly boned. My v2 Kylin (no leaks, yay!) MUST be supplied with the baby tank (2ml), and has the 6ML option. Menthol is (and should be), banned in all e-juice, for good reasons.. Because they're taking safety seriously. My point is WHEN SA government wakes up... and WILL WRITE ass-backward legislation.. At least we should have something to fight back with, or at least try to...

 

[Neill Powell]

LOl. Human nature dictates that if you tell someone they cannot use a substance unless they are 18, or 21, they will want to know why the substance is restricted and they WILL try it.

But in a legal sense, I am all for proper and realistic regulations on vaping, to keep the industry clean and honest. For example, we don't want a "Kitchen Chemist" making our e-juice and selling it to vendors with a nice label on. Especially if no one has inspected the premises where the juice is made.


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hehehe, sure, but getting a vape-set-up costs a whole lot more than a packet of smokies... et tu Brutus?

Completely agree.

 

[RichJB]

Who is certified

You can only be certified against a standard. There is no international e-juice standard yet, ISO is still developing theirs. Although I believe that the association of American e-juice makers has developed their own juice standard. However, our govt is likely to adopt the ISO standard, as and when it is published. Failing that, we may adopt the EU standard if there is one. We don't adopt a great number of US standards as our trade with them is quite limited.

It would be pointless for us to develop our own national juice standard as that work is being done already at international and regional level. So we'd be spending time and money on reinventing the wheel. No other country is going to adopt our standard if an international standard exists. Plus, if our standard is substantially different from the international standard, it could serve as a barrier to trade between us and our trading partners.

We are behind the curve on vaping regulations and I think govt has done that deliberately. They are letting the EU and US do all the heavy lifting with regard to developing regulations. Then we will see how it works out for them before deciding how we want to proceed.

 

[David Naude]

We are actually in the process of this https://www.vapeinstitute.co.za/

 

[Andre]

No, i totally understand. But the DAY it happens.... The EU is boned. Properly boned. My v2 Kylin (no leaks, yay!) MUST be supplied with the baby tank (2ml), and has the 6ML option. Menthol is (and should be), banned in all e-juice, for good reasons.. Because they're taking safety seriously. My point is WHEN SA government wakes up... and WILL WRITE ass-backward legislation.. At least we should have something to fight back with, or at least try to...

Why should menthol be banned in all e-juice? Does that include the Kooladas, Polar Blasts, etcetera?

 

[RichJB]

My understanding of the menthol issue is that it's not a safety issue but rather based on research which indicates that menthol is an attractive flavour to non-smokers and also that menthol cigarette smokers find it harder to quit nicotine. However, in his preliminary flavouring research, Maciej Goniewicz found that menthol-flavoured juice kills more cells than most other flavours. So it may well emerge that there is something in menthol which is hazardous. Afaik it's only Germany which is moving to ban menthol in juice although most EU member states have banned menthol cigarettes from 2020. SanFran has also banned menthol cigarettes.

 

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

In my opinion it is better to let sleeping dogs lie. Why should the SA government spend scarce resources on determining vaping regulations, when this is in any event being done by the EU, US and others.

 

[Silver]

My understanding of the menthol issue is that it's not a safety issue but rather based on research which indicates that menthol is an attractive flavour to non-smokers and also that menthol cigarette smokers find it harder to quit nicotine. However, in his preliminary flavouring research, Maciej Goniewicz found that menthol-flavoured juice kills more cells than most other flavours. So it may well emerge that there is something in menthol which is hazardous. Afaik it's only Germany which is moving to ban menthol in juice although most EU member states have banned menthol cigarettes from 2020. SanFran has also banned menthol cigarettes.

 

[Waine]

Oh no! I have only recently started to enjoy Menthol flavored e-liquid. I don't want to hear anything more on this, just incase I find some "hazardous" reading material about Menthol.

It's kind of the "Ostrich head in the hole syndrome".


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