Which cells do "most other flavours" kill?
How can we self-regulate before the government steps in
- Thread starter Neill Powell
- Start date
Which cells do "most other flavours" kill?
They were lung cells cultured and developed in a lab, the tests show that certain flavours create more aggressive structures that attack the cells. In regards to the OP, if vaping wants to survive the little hope we have is a committee of sorts being formed by the more active and prominent members who then engage with government. Although that will most likely be a fool's errand, it's the only semi-viable way vapers can try help vaping survive.
Goniewicz's testing showed that flavoured vapour killed fewer cells than cigarette smoke. Nevertheless, there were wide variances in the number of cells killed by the various vaping flavours. He initially cited menthol and cherry as the worst and has since added strawberry to the list. However, that was just picked up in interview conversation about his testing, I haven't seen exhaustive lists of flavours and how many cells they killed.
It also doesn't help us greatly because there are different flavours for each profile. There is no 'strawberry' flavour. Was he talking about TFA Ripe, Inw Shisha, FA Red Touch, Flv Alpine, Cap Sweet, some other brand? It is possible that brand A's strawberry is killing a lot of cells, brand B's strawberry far fewer because it uses different chemicals. So there is a lot of work that still needs to be done. We can take heart from the result that no flavour killed as many cells as cigarette smoke. But there is still a need to find out as much we can and to eliminate unacceptable risks where possible. A lot of harm reduction is better than a little harm reduction. Even if the flavours aren't banned or reformulated, we need to know which are the worst ones in order to make informed choices, just as we need to know which flavours contain diacetyl.
It also doesn't help us greatly because there are different flavours for each profile. There is no 'strawberry' flavour. Was he talking about TFA Ripe, Inw Shisha, FA Red Touch, Flv Alpine, Cap Sweet, some other brand? It is possible that brand A's strawberry is killing a lot of cells, brand B's strawberry far fewer because it uses different chemicals. So there is a lot of work that still needs to be done. We can take heart from the result that no flavour killed as many cells as cigarette smoke. But there is still a need to find out as much we can and to eliminate unacceptable risks where possible. A lot of harm reduction is better than a little harm reduction. Even if the flavours aren't banned or reformulated, we need to know which are the worst ones in order to make informed choices, just as we need to know which flavours contain diacetyl.
Some links would be great, we're all about information here!!! The more we have this discussion in the open, the sharper the landscape will come into focus.
Agreed. But we can at the very least, attempt to have a say, hell, if the voice is loud enough, and much like the pending marijuana debates taking place, you need but ONE province to pilot it.. Soon enough, others start thinking about it...
Loving the solid commentary here!
It goes to show how deeply invested we are in this. People are making grounded and concise comments to this thread. This is what we need. I have actually committed some of the stronger observations (thanks to RichJB, those observations have been noted in my paperwork!)
It goes to show how deeply invested we are in this. People are making grounded and concise comments to this thread. This is what we need. I have actually committed some of the stronger observations (thanks to RichJB, those observations have been noted in my paperwork!)
This is why we need this discussion. The more you know... Even if it is not to your liking, is an important part of being aware and having critical, thorough consideration of the available facts. This is EXACTLY why I want this discussion, so that people like yourself, (however sad the news may be, sorryOh no! I have only recently started to enjoy Menthol flavored e-liquid. I don't want to hear anything more on this, just incase I find some "hazardous" reading material about Menthol.
It's kind of the "Ostrich head in the hole syndrome".
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), get the PROPER information from a supportive, informed community.
Thanks for that. The Nerd in me, however did notice a few critical pieces of info missing from an otherwise good stub. My arguments are against the article, not RichJB:
I digress (apologies, it makes me f****** furious!!
)
- "Increased toxicity" is a terribly relative term. Increased toxicity when compared to...? (TELL ME!!! i'd really like to know!)
- "Increased" How much? Hundred-fold? Thousand fold? Or two-fold-increase-in-parts-per-billion v.s. Laboratory-grade-air? Nobody mentions the figures or the report, or the data behind the analysis.
I digress (apologies, it makes me f****** furious!!
)
The problem is that people want hard limits and medical science is loath to give them. Smokers want to know 'if smoking 8 cigarettes a day gives me cancer, is smoking 7 cigarettes a day safe?' Science can't answer that. You can smoke 100 cigarettes a day and still not have had cancer at the age of 90, you can never smoke and get cancer in your teens. It also doesn't help that Maciej says that running devices at higher temps and using menthol instead of custard flavour will increase the toxicity from 4 to 9 because science can't assure you that 7 is safe, that 9 is lethal and that 4 is harmless. All they can tell you is that taking in 4 units is less hazardous than taking in 9 units.
My brother suffered pulmonary embolism at the age of 50. He gave up smoking at the age of 40. Did smoking set the stage for pulmonary embolism to manifest? Would he have got pulmonary embolism if he'd never smoked? Would he have got it worse if he'd given up smoking at 45, and less if he'd given up smoking at 35? Science can't say. Perhaps smoking had everything to do with it, perhaps it had nothing to do with it and he'd still have got it even if he'd never smoked.
This is true of all medical conclusions. How many km a week must you jog to avoid the onset of heart disease? How many Big Macs can you eat and still be safe? What can your BMI be? Science can't say. What they can say is that eating ten Big Macs a month, never exercising and being 20kg overweight is more likely to result in heart disease than eating five Big Macs, exercising every second day and being only 5kg overweight. For an average individual. But you may not be average. I know pensioners who are grossly overweight and have never had heart problems. One of my schoolmates was a non-smoker, first team rowing, slim fitness fanatic who was enlisted into the Parabats. He got a weekend pass after basic training, went home, got into a hot bath to freshen up before supper - and was found dead of a heart attack an hour later by his parents.
I'm not freaked out about health, nor do I expect science to give me definitive answers. I have never avoided doing anything but I do take steps to do things in moderation. I only smoked fifteen a day, I only drink one glass of red wine a day, I don't eat fried foods all the time but I don't avoid them either. Ditto coffee. And sugar. And fats. I drink Coke, I just don't polish off 5L a day of it. I eat doughnuts or chips or chocolates, I just don't binge on them. I'm aware that all these things push me closer towards getting cancer or heart disease. But I'm not going to subsist on raw vegetables and deny myself life's pleasures for fear of dying. It's going to happen at some point whether I like it or not.
I am happy to vape. I am satisfied that it's doing me an awful lot less harm than smoking did. However, I will still keep it under control and do it in moderation - moderate juice consumption, moderate wattages. If it bothers me, I must rather give it up. It bothers me that I am now dependent on nicotine again. When I started vaping, I could do without it for hours on end. Now I crave within two hours of not getting it. So I must cut down my dependence on it. I don't think it's killing me but when it makes me think about it and arrange my schedule around getting it regularly, it becomes my master and I become its slave. I don't like being a slave. I may be coaxed into making an exception for Halle Berry in her Catwoman outfit.
But not for nic. So imma beat that sucker down and slap it upside the head, know'm'sayin?
There are no free lunches and it's not up to medical science to make me feel good about my choices. I don't need to know that vaping 6ml a day will be safe but 10ml a day gives me an 8% chance of cancer. All I need is for medical science to tell me that Cap Sweet is the most hazardous strawberry, Inw Shisha is the safest, Ripe is in the middle. Then I can make my own choices. And they are doing it. Flavorah now gives out a very informative sheet telling you exactly how much DAAP is in each flavour. So I scan through the list, find the ones that are absolutely sky-high in diacetyl and acetoin - and buy those first. Because diacetyl nom.
My brother suffered pulmonary embolism at the age of 50. He gave up smoking at the age of 40. Did smoking set the stage for pulmonary embolism to manifest? Would he have got pulmonary embolism if he'd never smoked? Would he have got it worse if he'd given up smoking at 45, and less if he'd given up smoking at 35? Science can't say. Perhaps smoking had everything to do with it, perhaps it had nothing to do with it and he'd still have got it even if he'd never smoked.
This is true of all medical conclusions. How many km a week must you jog to avoid the onset of heart disease? How many Big Macs can you eat and still be safe? What can your BMI be? Science can't say. What they can say is that eating ten Big Macs a month, never exercising and being 20kg overweight is more likely to result in heart disease than eating five Big Macs, exercising every second day and being only 5kg overweight. For an average individual. But you may not be average. I know pensioners who are grossly overweight and have never had heart problems. One of my schoolmates was a non-smoker, first team rowing, slim fitness fanatic who was enlisted into the Parabats. He got a weekend pass after basic training, went home, got into a hot bath to freshen up before supper - and was found dead of a heart attack an hour later by his parents.
I'm not freaked out about health, nor do I expect science to give me definitive answers. I have never avoided doing anything but I do take steps to do things in moderation. I only smoked fifteen a day, I only drink one glass of red wine a day, I don't eat fried foods all the time but I don't avoid them either. Ditto coffee. And sugar. And fats. I drink Coke, I just don't polish off 5L a day of it. I eat doughnuts or chips or chocolates, I just don't binge on them. I'm aware that all these things push me closer towards getting cancer or heart disease. But I'm not going to subsist on raw vegetables and deny myself life's pleasures for fear of dying. It's going to happen at some point whether I like it or not.
I am happy to vape. I am satisfied that it's doing me an awful lot less harm than smoking did. However, I will still keep it under control and do it in moderation - moderate juice consumption, moderate wattages. If it bothers me, I must rather give it up. It bothers me that I am now dependent on nicotine again. When I started vaping, I could do without it for hours on end. Now I crave within two hours of not getting it. So I must cut down my dependence on it. I don't think it's killing me but when it makes me think about it and arrange my schedule around getting it regularly, it becomes my master and I become its slave. I don't like being a slave. I may be coaxed into making an exception for Halle Berry in her Catwoman outfit.
But not for nic. So imma beat that sucker down and slap it upside the head, know'm'sayin? There are no free lunches and it's not up to medical science to make me feel good about my choices. I don't need to know that vaping 6ml a day will be safe but 10ml a day gives me an 8% chance of cancer. All I need is for medical science to tell me that Cap Sweet is the most hazardous strawberry, Inw Shisha is the safest, Ripe is in the middle. Then I can make my own choices. And they are doing it. Flavorah now gives out a very informative sheet telling you exactly how much DAAP is in each flavour. So I scan through the list, find the ones that are absolutely sky-high in diacetyl and acetoin - and buy those first. Because diacetyl nom.
@Neill Powell
The way forward about having some sort of representation is the formation of a "Vaping Association" This has to be a bona fide association with all the legal bells, whistles and rules. An association can take some setting up.
Dave
The way forward about having some sort of representation is the formation of a "Vaping Association" This has to be a bona fide association with all the legal bells, whistles and rules. An association can take some setting up.
Dave
There certainly is room for an association of vapers. Govt stakeholder negotiation typically involves industry and civil society. The vaping industry already has a body or bodies set up to represent it. No doubt the anti-smoking lobby will attend, as will the tobacco companies. So a vapers' association could represent the views of ordinary vapers. The first thing govt wants to know is "who is your constituency?", i.e. how many people do you represent. If you represent the five vapers in Pofadder, your voice carries less weight than a national association representing 100k vapers.
It's probably also a good idea to involve a lawyer or two, ideally with background in the regulatory environment. A key to any negotiation is to decide up front which battles you can win and which you can't. The industry will likely put together a realistic, well-researched and well-presented position. They have more invested in this than vapers do. It's our hobby but their livelihood. So I would think the first requirement of any civil society vaping body is "do no harm", iow do not distract from and hinder the industry's position. For eg, if the industry has already agreed to concede a DAAP prohibition, civil society insisting it should be allowed "because there is less diacetyl in vapour than in smoke" puts a spanner in the works. I think the primary goal of a vaping civil association would be to align with, support and be secondary to the industry's position.
It is widely accepted that industry talks with more technical insight and authority than civil society does. What industry cannot offer is personal testimony of how vaping has changed their lives for the better. That imo is the 'expertise' that a civil association offers in negotiations. It is pointless for the civil association to argue things like juice bottle or tank size limits or nic mg limits, the industry can argue those points with far greater authority and insight. But the industry can't say "95% of our customers think this has saved their lives". We need to say that.
So instead of the vaping association trying to argue about formaldehyde in vapour and other things which we are technically unqualified to argue, we should instead be arguing with personal testimony. "I was constantly coughing and wheezing as a smoker. In the year since I started vaping, my lung function and circulation have improved, I sleep better, I taste my food better, I have much more energy, I can feel the improvement. And here is my doctor's report to prove it." Then we complement and bolster industry's argument instead of potentially working against it.
It's probably also a good idea to involve a lawyer or two, ideally with background in the regulatory environment. A key to any negotiation is to decide up front which battles you can win and which you can't. The industry will likely put together a realistic, well-researched and well-presented position. They have more invested in this than vapers do. It's our hobby but their livelihood. So I would think the first requirement of any civil society vaping body is "do no harm", iow do not distract from and hinder the industry's position. For eg, if the industry has already agreed to concede a DAAP prohibition, civil society insisting it should be allowed "because there is less diacetyl in vapour than in smoke" puts a spanner in the works. I think the primary goal of a vaping civil association would be to align with, support and be secondary to the industry's position.
It is widely accepted that industry talks with more technical insight and authority than civil society does. What industry cannot offer is personal testimony of how vaping has changed their lives for the better. That imo is the 'expertise' that a civil association offers in negotiations. It is pointless for the civil association to argue things like juice bottle or tank size limits or nic mg limits, the industry can argue those points with far greater authority and insight. But the industry can't say "95% of our customers think this has saved their lives". We need to say that.
So instead of the vaping association trying to argue about formaldehyde in vapour and other things which we are technically unqualified to argue, we should instead be arguing with personal testimony. "I was constantly coughing and wheezing as a smoker. In the year since I started vaping, my lung function and circulation have improved, I sleep better, I taste my food better, I have much more energy, I can feel the improvement. And here is my doctor's report to prove it." Then we complement and bolster industry's argument instead of potentially working against it.
@RichB an excellent post and excellent thinking. You are clearly a logical, objective person and you should be on the committee who negotiates with government.
So hopefully this don’t get deleted.
But after the last few days I have actually left the group after this was posted.
It might actually be time for regulation in SA as this is a joke!
As it’s not only copyright infringement but also child appealing. The vendor actually went as far as to stand behind it as the company had 6 months to change the packaging.
My problem isn’t even with the manufacturer as this is a imported juice, but with a vendor importing juice like this. How hard is it to use common sense. SA has a perfect unregulated market where we only pay standard vat and no extra charges on vaping gear. it’s vendors like this that will be the downfall of it!!
Not sure how vendors like this is allowed to carry the ecigssa logo on their site @Silver
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But after the last few days I have actually left the group after this was posted.
It might actually be time for regulation in SA as this is a joke!
As it’s not only copyright infringement but also child appealing. The vendor actually went as far as to stand behind it as the company had 6 months to change the packaging.
My problem isn’t even with the manufacturer as this is a imported juice, but with a vendor importing juice like this. How hard is it to use common sense. SA has a perfect unregulated market where we only pay standard vat and no extra charges on vaping gear. it’s vendors like this that will be the downfall of it!!
Not sure how vendors like this is allowed to carry the ecigssa logo on their site @Silver
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So hopefully this don’t get deleted.
But after the last few days I have actually left the group after this was posted.
It might actually be time for regulation in SA as this is a joke!
As it’s not only copyright infringement but also child appealing. The vendor actually went as far as to stand behind it as the company had 6 months to change the packaging.
My problem isn’t even with the manufacturer as this is a imported juice, but with a vendor importing juice like this. How hard is it to use common sense. SA has a perfect unregulated market where we only pay standard vat and no extra charges on vaping gear. it’s vendors like this that will be the downfall of it!!
Not sure how vendors like this is allowed to carry the ecigssa logo on their site @Silver
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Thanks @Comrad Juju for bringing this to our attention
I personally do not like it when juice makers piggyback off other established logos. Have never bought a juice like that and have no intentions of doing so in future.
I also do not like it when vendors promote this kind of thing.
Will discuss this with our team.
Hi @Silver
I am specifically posting this as country’s like the US is already doing flavour bans in certain states and an article I have seen indicates that SA might follow the same trend as the US.
My main concern is that irresponsible vendors like this will be the cause of set flavour bans being imposed. Not only taking away some awesome imported vape juice but SA juice as well and causing people to lose jobs as we have a lot of really good mixers in SA.
The vaping community is really an awesome bunce of personalities I have met to date but again it’s my opinion it takes 1 vendor like this to ruin the industry.
I’m not a vendor or juice maker. I’m just a vapor who enjoys this unregulated / hobby space we call vaping.
Thanks for everything you guys are doing for the community
I am specifically posting this as country’s like the US is already doing flavour bans in certain states and an article I have seen indicates that SA might follow the same trend as the US.
My main concern is that irresponsible vendors like this will be the cause of set flavour bans being imposed. Not only taking away some awesome imported vape juice but SA juice as well and causing people to lose jobs as we have a lot of really good mixers in SA.
The vaping community is really an awesome bunce of personalities I have met to date but again it’s my opinion it takes 1 vendor like this to ruin the industry.
I’m not a vendor or juice maker. I’m just a vapor who enjoys this unregulated / hobby space we call vaping.
Thanks for everything you guys are doing for the community
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