This needs to be said!

[Cespian]

Firstly, I wasn't certain where to put this thread. Secondly, this is probably just my unpopular opinion and I know I am probably going to get a lot of crap for this but I believe it needs to be put out there.

==BEGIN RANT==

Vaping in South Africa is fairly new, and with most fairly new crazes, comes business opportunities. I have seen 10's of "E-Liquid Companies" popping up like alien vegetation over the past few months, and not just venders registered on this forum, but random okes selling from their cars etc.

Alot of these E-Juice Companies make absolutely brilliant and innovative flavours, using top quality ingredients etc. But what I've noticed is that some of these spontaneous venders are blatantly selling clones and to make matters worse, are selling these clones at normal price (R130 - R150).

I know what it takes to develop a flavour - I also know how much it costs to develop a flavour. It takes a lot of time, effort and money (alot of fellow vapers on this forum can vouch for my DIY'ing). Taking the very first factor into consideration, I let my juices steep for a month before determining if the recipe needs to be changed or not.

What urks me alot is that these juices are being sold by some of our top venders. I once experienced a case where I tasted 2 different branded juices at the same store and they tasted EXACTLY the same.

I really find it unethical that someone would take a recipe from the internet, market it as their "own creation", maybe tweaking the %'s a bit and then still have the nerve to charge full price. If you wanna sell a clone... exclude the RnD costs because its unfair to the guys who are truly putting in effort to develop their own stuff.

How do we regulate this sort of thing? How do we seperate the cloners from the mixologists and make this market a competitive one where we are expose to only TOP QUALITY e-liquid?

I am not going to name and shame on a public forum as it is not my style. Like I mentioned, it is probably my unpopular opinion. Please share your thoughts and experiences.

==END OF RANT==

 

[BeardedVaper93]

This is fully agree with. there is a clear cut list of clones that 70% of companies out there have, but at the end of the day, as a DIYer myself, it is not fair to bill at the same rate. we are vapers. not idiots. on no planet does it cost 120 - 150 to make a 30ml juice. so stop ripping us off. i guarantee that with the right market knowledge on marketing and supply, a good clone at cheap price will trump a great clone at a rip off.

 

[Ezekiel]

While I agree wholeheartedly with you, as well as getting annoyed when a vendor tries to pawn an exact clone juice off on me just because I liked the original (a vendor got a bit PO'd at me when I told him I will never buy a juice which had the audicity of not even changing the 'snake oil' name), the fact remains that clone and diy recipes are generally public domain. I would never want any of these businesses regulated by saying you cannot sell non-original juice. I know it feels 'unfair' towards some of the great mixologists in this country, since inevitably their own juices will find smaller market margins just because of the sheer number of juice lines out there, but I honestly feel regulating it in any way is unethical.

The most which any of us can do is to repost, review and praise decent local originals, with the hope that potential buyers will rather buy something new and good when they are able to read something about it. In addition, when many people learn that you can make a popular clone yourself at a third of the cost with very little experience, we might get lower margins on the 'premium clones' out there.

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[Ezekiel]

That said, Im tempted to never buy a juice from a line if they stock a 'strawberry milkshake' juice. Its getting ridiculous to the point that we might have to include strawberries and cream as a separate category for the Best of 2016 comp.

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[BeardedVaper93]

While I agree wholeheartedly with you, as well as getting annoyed when a vendor tries to pawn an exact clone juice off on me just because I liked the original (a vendor got a bit PO'd at me when I told him I will never buy a juice which had the audicity of not even changing the 'snake oil' name), the fact remains that clone and diy recipes are generally public domain. I would never want any of these businesses regulated by saying you cannot sell non-original juice. I know it feels 'unfair' towards some of the great mixologists in this country, since inevitably their own juices will find smaller market margins just because of the sheer number of juice lines out there, but I honestly feel regulating it in any way is unethical.

The most which any of us can do is to repost, review and praise decent local originals, with the hope that potential buyers will rather buy something new and good when they are able to read something about it. In addition, when many people learn that you can make a popular clone yourself at a third of the cost with very little experience, we might get lower margins on the 'premium clones' out there.

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i cannot disagree one bit. another encounter we have is the following: (example)
your juice - cinnamon strawberry custard
my juice - spicy creamy berry custard
OG juice - STRAW DOGS by ELP

all 3 completely different

i oath that no matter who reads your descriptions, it will be sold as a mothers milk clone thanks to ignorant sales people... which to me is a sad reality

 

[Kaizer]

Personally, I only buy juices that have been suggested by recognized members of the forum and approved by top vendors. My logic is purely about safety. Who knows where the "new" juice makers are making their juices. What environmental conditions are these juices being mixed in? Is it in a lab or clean room of sorts or maybe just in someones garage where I could be inhaling some mold that could have fallen into the mix.

A non-profit that goes around evaluating the DIY'ers juice making conditions providing a stamp of approval could be a way forward, but this will probably lead to price increases..... just a thought.

 

[Mike]

on no planet does it cost 120 - 150 to make a 30ml juice. so stop ripping us off.

Just to chime in here (always a dangerous thing as a vendor). Vendors have markups. Some as much as 100%. I had one vendor tell me he'll only sell if he's able to put a 200% markup on.

Don't blame that one on the juice makers

Another thing to consider. Strawberry creams sell. It's a staple, like fruit loops or apple pie or something with dragonfruit. Sometimes these things happen due to popularity, not copying. Sometimes however, that's not the case.

 

[Cespian]

i cannot disagree one bit. another encounter we have is the following: (example)
your juice - cinnamon strawberry custard
my juice - spicy creamy berry custard
OG juice - STRAW DOGS by ELP

all 3 completely different

i oath that no matter who reads your descriptions, it will be sold as a mothers milk clone thanks to ignorant sales people... which to me is a sad reality

The common ones out there that I found:

Looper
Mothers Milk
Unicorn Milk/Blood
Strawberry Milkshake
Snake Oil (lol)

 

[Cespian]

Just to chime in here (always a dangerous thing as a vendor). Vendors have markups. Some as much as 100%. I had one vendor tell me he'll only sell if he's able to put a 200% markup on.

Don't blame that one on the juice makers

Another thing to consider. Strawberry creams sell. It's a staple, like fruit loops or apple pie or something with dragonfruit. Sometimes these things happen due to popularity, not copying. Sometimes however, that's not the case.

Mike, I agree with you. What I am referring to are the blatant clones. Yes, it is expected that we will see similar flavours popping up, example, strawberry and cream or strawberry milkshake... but there are too many that are just blatantly Mustard Milk... an exact clone that I have made in my room using nothing but the internet, blue nitrile gloves and a few syringes.

 

[Waine]

Personally, I only buy juices that have been suggested by recognized members of the forum and approved by top vendors. My logic is purely about safety. Who knows where the "new" juice makers are making their juices. What environmental conditions are these juices being mixed in? Is it in a lab or clean room of sorts or maybe just in someones garage where I could be inhaling some mold that could have fallen into the mix.

A non-profit that goes around evaluating the DIY'ers juice making conditions providing a stamp of approval could be a way forward, but this will probably lead to price increases..... just a thought.

I second this and everything that was said in this thread. If a vendor wants to sell a new line of juice, a person from that vendor should inspect the premises where it is made and see how it is made. This is the norm for any "substance" that is marketed. Sellers check out the premises where it is manufactured to see if standards are met. There are clearly many fly by nights who make 'Kitchen juice" and pass it off as professionally made.

 

[BeardedVaper93]

So where is the logic then to buy 30ml at 150 when you can clone it and DIY for like 100% cheaper... as a DIYer, i oath never to buy liquids again. even if it was made on the queens dinner plate. it is exploitation and total nonsense to rip vapers off... IMHO

 

[Cespian]

So where is the logic then to buy 30ml at 150 when you can clone it and DIY for like 100% cheaper... as a DIYer, i oath never to buy liquids again. even if it was made on the queens dinner plate. it is exploitation and total nonsense to rip vapers off... IMHO

I DIY, but still buy local juice because:

a. support our local fellows
b. see what innovative stuff people are creating for inspiration for my own stuff (especially with import juices)

I save signficant costs making my own, however, it's nice to go and get "take-outs" from time to time

 

[BeardedVaper93]

I DIY, but still buy local juice because:

a. support our local fellows
b. see what innovative stuff people are creating for inspiration for my own stuff (especially with import juices)

I save signficant costs making my own, however, it's nice to go and get "take-outs" from time to time

it is a valid point, and please, everyone here, i love vaping and i'm proud to say we have a huge variety out there, but as an average joe, i cannot afford massive markups and worst of all on something you cannot taste before you buy...

 

[Ezekiel]

Another thing to consider. Strawberry creams sell. It's a staple, like fruit loops or apple pie or something with dragonfruit. Sometimes these things happen due to popularity, not copying. Sometimes however, that's not the case.

Thanks for chipping in @Mike - its actually good to have a vendor/juice-maker's opinion, since most of us don't have any knowledge of the actual sales.

I get fully that strawberry creams, and all the popular clone + clone variants sell. My worry is this:

If a juice line starts getting crowded (as in, too many different juices and running risk of overloading a prospective buyer), the first juice to be dropped will be the one that doesn't sell as nicely, right? Take your own Noggy Rock for instance. I love that juice - its so different than anything else in the local market. But it is a bit of a distinct/acquired taste, and therefore, I expect it to not sell as wonderfully as Sweet Bac for instance. So if you start making a bunch of popular clones since they sell better, which juice do you drop from your line when it starts getting crowded?

The same goes for vendors stocking other juices. As a vendor, you cannot really stock ALL the juices, for various reasons. So again, which ones do you decide to not stock? Especially if a vendor wants to stock all the juices of a particular line, he might be tempted to stock a line of mostly clones since they might sell better. I'm worried that, once we have too many juice lines out there, some of the really interesting juices in this country might eventually fade away.

I have no solution for this - it is, after all, mostly market driven. The only possible thing I can think of is to have variable pricing on different juices in the same line, selling the (mostly) clones cheaper and marketing the creative originals as premium, hand-crafted juice.

I also don't necessarily know how big of the market the frequent users on this forum represents. Most of the popular juices with a lot of mentions on here are generally the more interesting and original ones, but does that translate to the general buyer?

 

[Vapington]

Unfortunately with such a relatively easy industry to get into, you are going to have MANY chancers and bandwagon jumpers trying to make a quick buck off a growing market.

I do agree with the Strawberry flavours (we do have ourselves but we started a year ago when there were not many on the local market) and we dropped Fruloops for the very reason that the market was flooded with them - again we were one of the first in the country to bring out this flavour but we didn't want to be another fruit loop juice maker.

 

[NewOobY]

this is a touchy subject, while I mostly agree from a customer perspective - I also understand cloning recipes from a vendor perspective make more $$$$, since not so much R&D is required.

Also we have to realize that even a simple thing like the bread price is fixed across different bread makers. So if all vendors are selling local joose for R150, then why sell your clone for R70 when you can sell it for the standard market price of R150. Amounts here are just for reference, they are buy no means exact prices. However the point is clear "mo money, less work". Think about it, if you can get a job done in less time yet still bill the client the full amount - would you not continue to use that method of getting the job done quickly.

Now I know I am going to be hated about this, but I thought about this long and hard the other day because I came across a cloned recipe and thought goodness this is a cheap shot, so I've had time to think about it - and my conclusion is I understand the need to clone recipes, they quick wins dude.

 

[Silver]

Interesting thread @Cespian

I have one potential solution I could put forward at this point:
http://www.ecigssa.co.za/forums/e-liquid-reviews/

 

[Mike]

Thanks for chipping in @Mike - its actually good to have a vendor/juice-maker's opinion, since most of us don't have any knowledge of the actual sales.

I get fully that strawberry creams, and all the popular clone + clone variants sell. My worry is this:

If a juice line starts getting crowded (as in, too many different juices and running risk of overloading a prospective buyer), the first juice to be dropped will be the one that doesn't sell as nicely, right? Take your own Noggy Rock for instance. I love that juice - its so different than anything else in the local market. But it is a bit of a distinct/acquired taste, and therefore, I expect it to not sell as wonderfully as Sweet Bac for instance. So if you start making a bunch of popular clones since they sell better, which juice do you drop from your line when it starts getting crowded?

I have no solution for this - it is, after all, mostly market driven. The only possible thing I can think of is to have variable pricing on different juices in the same line, selling the (mostly) clones cheaper and marketing the creative originals as premium, hand-crafted juice.

I may be warned again for this hahahah! But it is directly related to what you're talking about.

I mentioned in @method1's podcast that I'm dropping a juice. It was a toss up between my worst seller (so bottom of 11) and an average seller. I chose to drop the average seller due to it being a "clone" and that it was initially released as a cheaper alternative to a popular, imported juice which was obviously quite expensive. My logic was that the concentrates to make it (although less accurately, but hey semantics) are available locally now, there's no reason for me to make it when I can keep producing something unique.

I guess not all juice makers share this perspective. For some people it is really just about the money.

 

[Silver]

Thread moved to "Who has stock"
Please continue

 

[Stosta]

I agree with you 100% @Cespian . I think morally it's appaling to sell clones. However morals and money seldom play nicely together.

Even though I'm no marxist or communist, I'm just going to leave a little Karl Marx here... "Nothing can have value, without being an object of utility".

 

[NewOobY]

Interesting thread @Cespian

I have one potential solution I could put forward at this point:
http://www.ecigssa.co.za/forums/e-liquid-reviews/

as tempting as this may be, I'm afraid I don't like giving negative ratings on juices - I've made this mistake before, and was attacked with pitch forks and fire. Lots of fire.

 

[Silver]

as tempting as this may be, I'm afraid I don't like giving negative ratings on juices - I've made this mistake before, and was attacked with pitch forks and fire. Lots of fire.
View attachment 47155

I hear you @NewOobY
It takes a lot of skill to do a negative review in a manner that doesn't overly offend.
But well-written and well considered negative reviews are good, not just for the juice maker but also the members and the industry.

 

[NewOobY]

I have just decided that I like @Mike a lot, you sir are a gentleman - and I really cannot wait to get my hands on your juices. I will dig deep into my non-vape related CUD budget and get me some MMM .

 

[Andre]

I do not DIY - tried and failed. Still tempted by all the awesome DIY members' posts in the forums. Might still give it a go just for dry, tart and slightly bitter juices, which are very scarce. EDIT: Just saw @Ezekiel's post above. Love the idea - ask more for those artisan juices. Like Vapour Mountain does for their Legends range. I love the Legends Lee, but realize such a dryish, edgy juice might not suit the majority of vapers. Thus, I am prepared to pay more for it to keep it on the shelf.

I could not care less if a local juice is a clone, tweaked or not. Armed with a good idea of what I like and do not like, I check out flavour profiles and descriptions, check out what others say or do not say, take into consideration my previous experiences (if any). Then I buy. Generally, if that juice disappoint I will not buy from that line again - unless I see some glowing comments to the contrary. New, unique flavour profile juices I give a go from time to time.

The market will sort it out - and it does as we have already seen. In the mean time let common sense prevail.

REWARD: Substantial reward offered for a clone of Tarks Select Reserve Matador.

 

[Andre]

as tempting as this may be, I'm afraid I don't like giving negative ratings on juices - I've made this mistake before, and was attacked with pitch forks and fire. Lots of fire.

I agree, the majority of vapers are not going to give a negative formal review. That in itself is a good indication of the relative merit of a juice for me - if it is not reviewed or mentioned in the forums (e.g. the What did you vape today thread) I tend to stay away.