Vape King advertising.
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I'm pretty sure it's blatant as to why this could be construed as unethical in a business sense.
Edit
Apologies, I posted two more questions before your reply Rob.
You may see it that way but I don't. What I see is someone who has spend a lot of time and money building a site for the good of the nation and yes of course it was a good business move as well and kudos to him... but the forum has grown to much more and while he has spent a considerable lot more money on the system than any vendor currently enjoying the fruits of his labour will EVER do he is sucking the hind one so to speak.
And to answer your other two questions... which I would thought would have be blatantly obvious... yes of course it is to contribute towards running of the system (Hardware, Software and Bandwidth etc).
Mind you it may all be a moot point because judging by the voting it's pretty much a landslide in favour of being fair.
Hi guys
Sorry, been out all day and only saw this now
As some of the other guys have explained, @Gizmo took a decision to not advertise when the advertising became available.
He didn't want anyone to think he was getting unfair privileges
I think that was probably not necessary but it was the moral high ground - and I think @Gizmo needs to be commended for that.
As has also been mentioned, we are now a team of 10 Admins & Mods of which @Gizmo is just one. We are a strong team. I have to point out that we make all our decisions regarding this forum as a team. Where necessary, we take a vote.
We are confident that the Admin & Mod team can manage things in such a way that Vape King does not get an unfair advantage. I am certain they have not had any unfair advantage up to this point.
Someone asked a good question as to what would we do if Vape King broke the guidelines and how would they be disciplined. Well I do think that they wouldn't dare do such a thing, not only to avoid the embarrassment, but they know that we as Admins & Mods would be forced to go through the same process as we would with any other retailer.
So I think it is @Gizmo's decision as to whether he wants VapeKing to advertise or not. I don't think there is anything wrong with it - as long as VapeKing pays its fees in the same way as other advertisers and that they are subject to the same guidelines as others.
I don't think it is our decision or any members' decision to "force" @Gizmoto advertise. I think it is his call.
We as the Admin & Mod team have had discussions around this very issue a while back and I am just echoing some of the salient points.
Sorry, been out all day and only saw this now
As some of the other guys have explained, @Gizmo took a decision to not advertise when the advertising became available.
He didn't want anyone to think he was getting unfair privileges
I think that was probably not necessary but it was the moral high ground - and I think @Gizmo needs to be commended for that.
As has also been mentioned, we are now a team of 10 Admins & Mods of which @Gizmo is just one. We are a strong team. I have to point out that we make all our decisions regarding this forum as a team. Where necessary, we take a vote.
We are confident that the Admin & Mod team can manage things in such a way that Vape King does not get an unfair advantage. I am certain they have not had any unfair advantage up to this point.
Someone asked a good question as to what would we do if Vape King broke the guidelines and how would they be disciplined. Well I do think that they wouldn't dare do such a thing, not only to avoid the embarrassment, but they know that we as Admins & Mods would be forced to go through the same process as we would with any other retailer.
So I think it is @Gizmo's decision as to whether he wants VapeKing to advertise or not. I don't think there is anything wrong with it - as long as VapeKing pays its fees in the same way as other advertisers and that they are subject to the same guidelines as others.
I don't think it is our decision or any members' decision to "force" @Gizmoto advertise. I think it is his call.
We as the Admin & Mod team have had discussions around this very issue a while back and I am just echoing some of the salient points.
To me this is not about fairness or what anything should have been,I'm sure I don't need to tell you that life isn't fair or how probably all of us at one time or another wish that statements we have made in the past SHOULD have been different. That's not the point, it never was. (mine anyway)
I personally don't care if Vape King advertises on their own forum or not, and I was surprised by Gizmo's statement myself when he first made it.
It's about keeping your word and not moving the goalposts once it suits you/your situation/the situation changes.
Again, I'm sure I don't have to tell you, a mans word is his bond.
As much as you don't think it's fair, and I may not think it would be ethical, neither of our opinions matter, what matters is Gizmo's eventual actions, because both of us are discussing an issue on behalf of someone else.
I agree 100% @Rob Fisher. I vote that VK gets a banner ad of their choosing, and for what they have done for this community and for creating this awesome platform that we all enjoy and use freely they should have it at no charge.
My post wasn't in reply to whether they should or should not be allowed. I'm merely stating that the notion of it being questionable is not that far fetched. If we put "feelings" and morality aside for a second... consider this perspective if you will and I'll use myself as example.
If I am to pay money to the owners of the forum, to build on assets that belong to them and they were to pay money to themselves for same said reason, why need they even bother pay at all since it's going back into asset growth that belongs to them anyway.
Might as well make use of all space, since technically it won't cost them anything and even if it did, they'd only see whatever they invested grow.
Again, this is not a "they should or they shouldn't" post. Merely stating that from a business perspective, it's not that far fetched to think it unethical.
I was not aware that this was a vote... noticed the poll
Edit: Fail to see the relevance of this in the open.
This is mainly how I feel about it too.
It's why I am neutral to it.
I felt like voting either way on it is not my business.
There are people better equipped and more knowledgeable on this topic, right here in the forum.
I feel that this decision rides with admin.
no problems over here, i also believe vape king should be allowed to pay for advertising space
Guys @Gizmo is the only one not responding to this thread. Think that says alot. This shouldn't be a debate. We should all just be asking why he hasn't used the space to advertise and prompt him to pay the fee and then go ahead and do so. His stance previously is admirable. And proves his genuine and trustworthy. So he has my vote
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I dnt believe he would be breaking his word if the members are the ones pushing for him to advertise.
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I personally think they should be able to advertise as well. Some of us that deal with Vape King might know that Gizmo & Stroodle started the forum, but a lot of other members may wonder why they are not advertising.
I think the real question is if Gizmo and/or the other vendors would see that as a clash of interests ?
I'm not sure what agreements there are between @Gizmo & @Stroodlepuff and the other paying vendors, so all the yes votes may mean nothing from that perspective . We cannot alter any agreements that's currently in place and I don't think VK would ever compromise on their integrity and relationships with the other vendors.
I think the real question is if Gizmo and/or the other vendors would see that as a clash of interests ?
I'm not sure what agreements there are between @Gizmo & @Stroodlepuff and the other paying vendors, so all the yes votes may mean nothing from that perspective . We cannot alter any agreements that's currently in place and I don't think VK would ever compromise on their integrity and relationships with the other vendors.
Personally I think it shows remarkable integrity on behalf of @Gizmo and @Stroodlepuff.
I'm still really new here. So I guess I don't really have a huge amount of room to speak.
But the way I see it, is that in a sense this forum is kinda like a shared CRM (Client Resources Management) for vendors. Frankly a pretty valuable one (1100+ members/clients/potential clients), to me it seems a little unfair that its a resource that Vape King can't fully tap, because it superficially may look a bit suspect.
From what I see its abundantly clear that people on this forum aren't afraid to speak their minds. With that in mind, issues of unfairness are kinda moot from where I'm sitting, people would react if anything happened.
It does speak volumes of the integrity of @Stroodlepuff and @Gizmo. That they didn't just whack some adverts on here and call it a day.
Because thats exactly what would have happened if this forum was based up here. It's refreshing to see that, its a real rarity here.
I guess what I'm saying in a very long winded way, is that if its done all above board. Whats the harm in it?
As others have said, discourse on the matter is really not really going to go anywhere concrete, as the decision isn't ours. All it can really do is show what the general consensus is among us users of the forum
But the way I see it, is that in a sense this forum is kinda like a shared CRM (Client Resources Management) for vendors. Frankly a pretty valuable one (1100+ members/clients/potential clients), to me it seems a little unfair that its a resource that Vape King can't fully tap, because it superficially may look a bit suspect.
From what I see its abundantly clear that people on this forum aren't afraid to speak their minds. With that in mind, issues of unfairness are kinda moot from where I'm sitting, people would react if anything happened.
It does speak volumes of the integrity of @Stroodlepuff and @Gizmo. That they didn't just whack some adverts on here and call it a day.
Because thats exactly what would have happened if this forum was based up here. It's refreshing to see that, its a real rarity here.
I guess what I'm saying in a very long winded way, is that if its done all above board. Whats the harm in it?
As others have said, discourse on the matter is really not really going to go anywhere concrete, as the decision isn't ours. All it can really do is show what the general consensus is among us users of the forum
Ok. Here is my view
The forum (hardware/software) belongs to gizmo amd stroodel
Vapeking belongs to gizmo and stroodle.
They have 2 companies so to speak.
If they were to pay for advertising, they would get the profit or whatever. So technically its not costing them a thing.
But. They are investing their time and money into this forum.
Probably more time. And time is more valuable than money in my opinion
So I say. For their time they can advertise. As long as their advertising does not over power the other retailers adverts.
Ie. I dont want to see a vk add on every spot. Maybe just top ans side banner. Their "free" space must be inline what the other vendors are buying.
If u have your own muffin making company, would u buy ir own muffins or just eat one from time to time.....
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The forum (hardware/software) belongs to gizmo amd stroodel
Vapeking belongs to gizmo and stroodle.
They have 2 companies so to speak.
If they were to pay for advertising, they would get the profit or whatever. So technically its not costing them a thing.
But. They are investing their time and money into this forum.
Probably more time. And time is more valuable than money in my opinion
So I say. For their time they can advertise. As long as their advertising does not over power the other retailers adverts.
Ie. I dont want to see a vk add on every spot. Maybe just top ans side banner. Their "free" space must be inline what the other vendors are buying.
If u have your own muffin making company, would u buy ir own muffins or just eat one from time to time.....
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If they pay as any other vendor, I don't see a problem with it either.
The admins and mods are here to watch that everything is as fair as can be, no special privileges.
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The admins and mods are here to watch that everything is as fair as can be, no special privileges.
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As long as the whole shebang is run separately, totally transparent and fully accountable I have no problem.
*Official Statement from VapeMOB regarding this matter*
While it may seem unfair on VapeKing that they cannot make use of the forum advertising, In the initial engagement regarding advertising space, it was clearly communicated that Vapeking could not participate in any form of advertising on the forum.
The fundamentals of business are not founded on human emotion like integrity or good will. It is all black and white and there are no shades of grey.
Violating this would be construed as breach of contract, irrespective of how the community tries to justify the matter. This matter can only be viewed from a business perspective and the fact that a poll was taken allowing the community to vote on this is outrageous.
We have a highly passionate community of vapers that have formed strong allegiances with specific vendors, some are entirely nuetral.
Having said that, public opinion is critical to any business. Our position on this topic is purely founded on a business proposal that was misrepresented, a proposal that will be in breach of the terms and conditions on which it was presented.
The bottom line is that it would be highly unethical and a breach of the terms by which these ads were sold.
The only way to remedy this would be too remove all costs associated with advertising so we entertain a discussion about feelings.
If you think about it, This thread is a perfect way to gain public opinion on a matter that should have been discussed between vendors and not on a public forum. Our opinion and any business owner that objects to this will most likely be construed to customers as being harsh and unfair.
While it may seem unfair on VapeKing that they cannot make use of the forum advertising, In the initial engagement regarding advertising space, it was clearly communicated that Vapeking could not participate in any form of advertising on the forum.
The fundamentals of business are not founded on human emotion like integrity or good will. It is all black and white and there are no shades of grey.
Violating this would be construed as breach of contract, irrespective of how the community tries to justify the matter. This matter can only be viewed from a business perspective and the fact that a poll was taken allowing the community to vote on this is outrageous.
We have a highly passionate community of vapers that have formed strong allegiances with specific vendors, some are entirely nuetral.
Having said that, public opinion is critical to any business. Our position on this topic is purely founded on a business proposal that was misrepresented, a proposal that will be in breach of the terms and conditions on which it was presented.
The bottom line is that it would be highly unethical and a breach of the terms by which these ads were sold.
The only way to remedy this would be too remove all costs associated with advertising so we entertain a discussion about feelings.
If you think about it, This thread is a perfect way to gain public opinion on a matter that should have been discussed between vendors and not on a public forum. Our opinion and any business owner that objects to this will most likely be construed to customers as being harsh and unfair.
@Nimbus_Cloud I think u may be right in how members will see opinions similar to yours. I do see where you are coming from and it's understandable. But there is enough business being generated thru this forum for all businesses to enjoy and reap the benefits of. A forum that gizmo started and made available to all vendors to use, promote and advertise. Why shud he not be able to use this space if he is a paying customer jst like every other vendor. That being said gizmo did not ask for this thread to be started. Was the opinion of a member and then supported by many others. I think members should have a say and that our opinion shud be heard.
In any case I'd like to thank @Gizmo for starting this forum. Big up to you mate
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In any case I'd like to thank @Gizmo for starting this forum. Big up to you mate
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Sorry that's where I have to disagree with you completely. I have started and sold two very successful businesses and both businesses were based on human emotion, integrity and good will and not one contract. In fact my biggest growth in my ISP (Internet Service Provider) was during the period that big business made customers sign a years contract... at that time my answer was simple... no contract... if I don't service you to your satisfaction then you leave plain and simple... and despite the fact that my monthly subs were R110 vs the R90 a month the corporate was charging my growth was through the roof! 18 months later the same corporate offered me more cash than I had ever dreamed possible for my business. The entire business was built on a hand shake!
While I will admit that business has changed in the last ten years and contracts are often needed I still believe in being fair to all sides. A win Win is the only way to do business ever!
From what you are saying your business was based on honouring your word and not on emotion or “being fair”. As a respectable business, your initial promise of terms of service cannot be broken.
While it would be great if we could level the playing fields, this will never be possible so long as a vendor owns the forum and/or is given moderator privileges. Surely by this logic each vendor should then also be a moderator to “be fair”? Are you aware of the exact pretences under which these ads were sold to vendors and the terms certain vendors have committed to?
If you promised a client oranges and sold them apples, are they not within their rights to question this?
And if for some reason (god forbid) gizmo pulls the plug on this forum, would you start another public forum and NOT advertise Vape Mob? I understand your contract/agreement argument but just keep in mind, when Gizmo started this forum vaping was extremely small compared to where it stands now a few short months later. Would Vape Mob be where it is now if it was not for this forum?
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Guys, again, I'm a small fish in these waters...
But maybe we should relax with how things are being worded. This seems to be going down a road that leads to unpleasantness.
But maybe we should relax with how things are being worded. This seems to be going down a road that leads to unpleasantness.
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