Vape & Politics

[Effjh]

Most definitely Big Pharma through government. Big tobacco is moving towards vaping themselves, no way they will shoot themselves in the foot.

 

[Lion]

I wasn't saying you were being hysterical, I was saying that some of the YT reviewers were being hysterical in their reaction to the FDA 8 Aug date. As we have seen, their "the end is nigh" doomsaying was completely wrong. A year later, nothing has changed.

The doomsday prophets, okay, I get that, yup, they are totally annoying.

People don't go into business to "help an industry get on its feet". They go into business to make money.

Lol @ the in the business to make money, totally agree, and I would agree that some people got values and loyalty towards the industry, and then you have those self centered individuals only true to themselves and the amount of money in their pockets.

If I went into a business in which customers inhale nicotine into their lungs and I didn't have the expectation that it was going to be regulated, I should really have paid more attention to the world around me. If an industry involves customers putting substances into their body, it will be regulated and business owners need to factor that into their planning. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Like i said, a definite yes for regulation, a huge no no for regulating my vape in the same class as tobacco, it's NOT tobacco!
Regulating = Yes
Vape same as Tobacco = Not even close

If you get hit with sin taxes, that gets passed on to the customers. If you buy a pack of cigarettes from Spar, do you think they're paying the govt sin tax out of their own pockets? You're paying it. K@k en bet@@l, wet van Transv@@l. Why will my customers go to the tobacco companies' products if my products are better? Big tobacco are still "flooding the market" with cigarettes. Are you still buying them?

Why would the happy customer go to another company if yours are better? Well you gave the answer on that, money makes the world go round and you as small company won't be able to compete with the flooded market with lowered prices from tobacco companies. Your loyal customers WIL turn to lower prices, don't be fooled, business is business like you say...

Big tobacco have the advantage that they are big. That is a fundamental rule of capitalism and applies to all industries. A corner cafe owner has to sell baked beans for R15 a tin because he only buys 200 tins at a time. Pick n Pay can sell those same beans for R8 a tin because they order 3 million tins at a time. Economies of scale dictate prices. So the corner cafe goes out of business. That is free market dynamics. Is there a reason why vaping should operate differently?

Maybe it would be best to invest your million in the larger tobacco companies then aimed on vaping and turn your back on the vape community that actually gave the industry it's starting point?

It's not based on lies but on a well-founded caution about products which are inhaled into our lungs. The food flavourings we use in juice are regulated and were regulated long before vaping. It's a chemical product that goes into food, which goes into your stomach. The manufacturers had to go through exhaustive FDA safety testing to show that their product wasn't going to harm people. That applies to almost all products which are ingested or inhaled. Vapers seem to believe that regulation is some cruel and inhuman punishment that is meted out only to them. It isn't. It is how the world works.

Regulations (especially false regulations classing a non tobacco product as being tobacco, it's like saying water and mampoer is the same thing and must be regulated under alcohol laws, because one consume it via mouth and it ends up in your stomach - bull) could be extremely bad in the wrong hands, we see that all the time and again. This is Africa as they would say... TIA

 

[Lion]

Most definitely Big Pharma through government. Big tobacco is moving towards vaping themselves, no way they will shoot themselves in the foot.

@Effjh A very valid point. One thing though, they might be more involved now with discrediting the vape industry to open the market for themselves at a later stage.

 

[Lion]

@Effjh Just to add on to your view point. Strictly spoken, the pharmaceutical industry already earned legislation that they should be the sole distributor of vape products as an alternative to quit smoking... I think there is just not enough resources at the moment to properly introduce and implement this...

Interesting article from Daily Maverick Here I quote from the article:

The tobacco industry is not unique. Both it and the pharmaceutical industry would like to monopolize the e-cigarette action. And government is only too happy to sacrifice public health to big business lobbyists. The truth is that they are safe to use and effective to quit smoking. If governments were consistent, they’d hand e-cigarettes out like condoms.

Another interesting document here from CANSA Here

The current Law? Full article Here

In terms of the Medicines and Related Substances Act of 1965 (“Medicines Act”), nicotine-containing e-cigarettes that are sold as a substitute for tobacco products (or as a medicinal aid to quit smoking) require registration with the Medicines Control Council for lawful sale, and may only be sold in pharmacies, on prescription. However, in practice, this is not the case. E-cigarettes are marketed in South Africa as consumer products, as opposed to medical devices. They are widely available at kiosks in many shopping malls, tobacconists and other retail outlets.

 

[Tanja]

Some very interesting viewpoints here...

So when they do start taxing... what exactly will they be able to tax? Probably only the nicotine itself? Surely not the PG, VG and flavoring? Mods maybe?

 

[RichJB]

It will probably be a generic tax on all vape purchases. It might not apply to accessories like cotton, wire, batteries, tools. But I guess that all mods, tanks, juice and coils (things that have no use outside vaping) would be hit. For DIY, I think only nic would be hit. Food flavourings, PG, VG, scales, bottles, gloves, syringes all have uses outside vaping.

 

[Tanja]

It will probably be a generic tax on all vape purchases. It might not apply to accessories like cotton, wire, batteries, tools. But I guess that all mods, tanks, juice and coils (things that have no use outside vaping) would be hit. For DIY, I think only nic would be hit. Food flavourings, PG, VG, scales, bottles, gloves, syringes all have uses outside vaping.

It's not that bad then...(Not that I am saying it's good at all!) If you build your own coils and DIY your juice, the only impact will be on your nic... and of course any future hardware purchases...
I almost want to say that I agree that commercial juices must be regulated... Surely you want to know that it wasn't brewed in a bathtub where his 3 year old son just had a bath in after a day in the sandpit at school!
Anyway... I personally think it's probably neither here nor there... for me personally anyway... I am not heavy on hardware... and slowly trying to phase nicotine out as it is...

 

[Alex]

In my mind, the "mainstream-media" are the undisputed leaders in spreading fake stories about vaping. They are the real enemy. The tobacco industry as I see things are not the enemy, I'm pretty sure they regard the new vaping industry as a huge opportunity going forward.

Not far behind the MSM are self-indulgent politicians and big pharma.

Well that's my 2c.

 

[Sash]

In my mind, the "mainstream-media" are the undisputed leaders in spreading fake stories about vaping. They are the real enemy. The tobacco industry as I see things are not the enemy, I'm pretty sure they regard the new vaping industry as a huge opportunity going forward.

Not far behind the MSM are self-indulgent politicians and big pharma.

Well that's my 2c.

Media runs the world and every industry that the world has. Agree with you on this.

 

[kev mac]

@kev mac I would like to believe that the vape community will stand as one and fight the battle together. Yes, there will be the individual or two that would try to take their claim by going against the stream, but it will be up to the Vape community to "direct" those individuals on the way out, as we don't need and want self centered people in this tough road ahead. The vape market is huge and there is more than enough leverage for all vendors, shops, wholesalers, bottlers etc. (no need to work against one another) and the consumer would be the ones benefiting the most from this, as they get the first ever opportunity to leave the world of smoking cigarettes behind once and for all, in general this could lead to a much healthier society.
I also believe that it is our responsibility as vape community to fight this battle full on, not only for us, but for our children and future generations to come, as vaping IS a better alternative, and even if ALL the chemicals found in flavoring is harmful, it's like a drop in a barrel compared to harmful chemicals found in cigarettes...

Amen to all you say brother, I am with you and have and will continue to fight for what is right.
That said at 61 yrs.old I've been around the block a few times and have seen time and time again that the Pols are crooked as pretzels and care more about taking care of their big business buddies and lining their pockets than what is right or our health.Yes we must stick together, but it won't be easy.

 

[Effjh]

@Effjh A very valid point. One thing though, they might be more involved now with discrediting the vape industry to open the market for themselves at a later stage.

BAT has already released studies they funded that show the benefits of vaping as an healthy alternative to smoking. I wouldn't say they are planning on discrediting the vaping industry (again they need it in good light if they intend on entering the market), pushing for regulations on the other hand, possibly. They might want to out power the competition financially. Locally they are more focused on competing with companies like Twisp rather than the hobbyist market we are mostly reliant on.

Big pharma still makes more money out of smoking related illnesses and their cessation products don't work nearly as well as vaping. Interestingly, cancer research is largely funded by cigarette taxes, little conflict of interest there..

 

[Lion]

Some very interesting viewpoints here...

So when they do start taxing... what exactly will they be able to tax? Probably only the nicotine itself? Surely not the PG, VG and flavoring? Mods maybe?

@Tanja & @RichJB When? We will probably know when they only start implementing it (although I believe that they already started moving in that direction behind the curtains, it's just not official yet), at the moment there is no indication when it's going to be. But it will be, for sure.

To understand how it will effect everyone, we maybe need to break it down in 3 or so categories like DIY'ers, Vendors and the Bottlers (Wholesalers) as it will affect each of those in a completely different way, but make no mistake, everyone will be effected on the same scale at the end of the day.

I don't believe for a second that the tax will be only on nicotine, tax is not ingredient driven, it is industry or if you want to break it down a bit, product driven. Example, there is super tax on cigarettes, not just the ingredient tobacco... Cigarettes are taxed on the paper, glue, buds, packaging, wrapping, tobacco etc etc. (paper are still being sold in other sectors and taxed with normal tax) What I'm saying is, be sure that if vape is classed as a tobacco product, we will all pay the extra tax on all the ingredients and also most probably on all related devices as well, as the product is meaningless without it. Do people really think it's difficult to regulate tax on PG and VG for instance because it's used in other sectors? It's easy as 123 to add super tax on those items in the vape industry, and very easy to enforce as well.

I'm going to leave the discussion for other points of view on how it will affect the 3 different sectors as I've mentioned above. I would really like to see what everyone else's feeling and point of view is about this subject.

 

[Lion]

again they need it in good light if they intend on entering the market

@Effjh They are already in the market, some tobacco companies already introduced their vape products

Big pharma still makes more money out of smoking related illnesses and their cessation products don't work nearly as well as vaping. Interestingly, cancer research is largely funded by cigarette taxes, little conflict of interest there..

True, very true...

 

[Lion]

Media runs the world and every industry that the world has. Agree with you on this.

@Alex & @Sash Media is merely a tool used to control by larger groups or bodies. The media gets funded by who ever wants to get their message across, in this case by government, tobacco companies & pharmaceutical industry. These bodies got some nice funding behind them, so yes, the media will be sure to keep their customers happy to improve their revenue and income...
Media don't "run" the world, I do agree that it is the nr 1 tool used in the world to "run" the world though.

 

[RichJB]

To those who think that the media misinterpreting or sensationalising the result of scientific studies is somehow unique to vaping, let me re-link John Oliver's excellent piece on Scientific Studies:



It is not just vaping. Every sector is affected by media misinterpretation or misreporting of scientific research. It shouldn't be a mystery why this happens. "Peanut Butter can kill you!" is a media headline that is going to get a lot more clicks than "New scientific study on peanut butter reveals nothing we didn't know already".

 

[Lion]

To those who think that the media misinterpreting or sensationalising the result of scientific studies is somehow unique to vaping, let me re-link John Oliver's excellent piece on Scientific Studies:



It is not just vaping. Every sector is affected by media misinterpretation or misreporting of scientific research. It shouldn't be a mystery why this happens. "Peanut Butter can kill you!" is a media headline that is going to get a lot more clicks than "New scientific study on peanut butter reveals nothing we didn't know already".

Baaaaaahahahahaha Brilliant!!!

 

[RichJB]

@Tanja & @RichJB When? We will probably know when they only start implementing it

They will announce it and gazette it. Regulation/new taxation is not just sprung on the populace, govt announces and takes comments from industry and civil society first. I think they are observing the TPD2 process in the EU and seeing how that pans out. Then they will probably just adopt the EU regs as is. It makes it a lot easier in terms of trade. If our regs are the same as the EU then it means that manufacturers don't have to go through one approval process for the EU and another for SA. They can just forward their paperwork showing compliance with the EU and our govt will accept that.

We will definitely not have the expensive PMTAs which the FDA are applying in the US. The size of our market doesn't warrant it. Although, seeing as our regs are likely to be less stringent than the US, we will probably again accept proof of compliance with US regs for any product wanting to enter our market.

I think we can accept that sin taxes will go with the package. Govt is forever looking for new revenue streams and a vaping sin tax ticks all the boxes. 98% of the populace don't vape so there will be mass support for and little resistance to a vaping sin tax. Voters generally support taxes that target someone else and not them individually. Vapers are among the 10% of the wealthiest in the country. A sector that spends R150 on a small bottle of juice that lasts one or two days cannot plead poverty. It's also a voluntary tax, you can avoid it if you really want to. As such, it's a slam dunk for govt.

 

[Tanja]

They will announce it and gazette it. Regulation/new taxation is not just sprung on the populace, govt announces and takes comments from industry and civil society first. I think they are observing the TPD2 process in the EU and seeing how that pans out. Then they will probably just adopt the EU regs as is. It makes it a lot easier in terms of trade. If our regs are the same as the EU then it means that manufacturers don't have to go through one approval process for the EU and another for SA. They can just forward their paperwork showing compliance with the EU and our govt will accept that.

We will definitely not have the expensive PMTAs which the FDA are applying in the US. The size of our market doesn't warrant it. Although, seeing as our regs are likely to be less stringent than the US, we will probably again accept proof of compliance with US regs for any product wanting to enter our market.

I think we can accept that sin taxes will go with the package. Govt is forever looking for new revenue streams and a vaping sin tax ticks all the boxes. 98% of the populace don't vape so there will be mass support for and little resistance to a vaping sin tax. Voters generally support taxes that target someone else and not them individually. Vapers are among the 10% of the wealthiest in the country. A sector that spends R150 on a small bottle of juice that lasts one or two days cannot plead poverty. It's also a voluntary tax, you can avoid it if you really want to. As such, it's a slam dunk for govt.

Sad but true yes...

 

[RichJB]

I wouldn't say they are planning on discrediting the vaping industry (again they need it in good light if they intend on entering the market)

They are already in the market and dominating it. Not BAT specifically but big tobacco generally. 30% of the US vaping market share is held by disposables. The open-system Smok/Sigelei/Eleaf/etc gear that we use doesn't do convenience store disposables, that is the domain of big tobacco and one or two small independents. In terms of the overall US vaping market, disposables and rechargeables combined, big tobacco brands have 70% market share.

 

[Effjh]

They are already in the market and dominating it. Not BAT specifically but big tobacco generally. 30% of the US vaping market share is held by disposables. The open-system Smok/Sigelei/Eleaf/etc gear that we use doesn't do convenience store disposables, that is the domain of big tobacco and one or two small independents. In terms of the overall US vaping market, disposables and rechargeables combined, big tobacco brands have 70% market share.

Yep I know they are already in the market, didn't know it was such a large share though. Interesting fact.

 

[Lion]

In terms of the overall US vaping market, disposables and rechargeables combined, big tobacco brands have 70% market share.

Ouch, did not know this @RichJB , thanks for sharing.

 

[RichJB]

I found it quite an eye-opener when I asked on an international sports forum if there were any other vapers there. I got a number of replies but the vast majority were from people who had Blu or Vuse or whatever cigalikes, and then quite a number who just use disposables. They pop into their convenience store, buy a disposable, chuck it away a week later and get another. Eventually I asked "Yes but is anybody actually vaping? You know, mods, tanks, coils...?" and almost nobody was.

It makes sense if you think about it. How did we all get into vaping? Guaranteed that 90% of us started with Twisps. We had the curiosity to dig deeper and find gear that is more enthusiast-level. But many don't. They start on a Twisp or a big tobacco cigalike and that's where they stay.

Here is the graph of market share in the US:



Njoy is the only non-tobacco brand in there. And they have since gone bankrupt. The stats are probably somewhat skewed in that they base their sales figures on those of the fifty biggest retailers or somesuch. So there will be small vape shops who sell our type of gear (but not cigalikes so much) and who wouldn't be factored in. But even with that, big tobacco has a huge share in the US vaping market.

 

[Lion]

I found it quite an eye-opener when I asked on an international sports forum if there were any other vapers there. I got a number of replies but the vast majority were from people who had Blu or Vuse or whatever cigalikes, and then quite a number who just use disposables. They pop into their convenience store, buy a disposable, chuck it away a week later and get another. Eventually I asked "Yes but is anybody actually vaping? You know, mods, tanks, coils...?" and almost nobody was.

It makes sense if you think about it. How did we all get into vaping? Guaranteed that 90% of us started with Twisps. We had the curiosity to dig deeper and find gear that is more enthusiast-level. But many don't. They start on a Twisp or a big tobacco cigalike and that's where they stay.

Here is the graph of market share in the US:

View attachment 106485

Njoy is the only non-tobacco brand in there. And they have since gone bankrupt. The stats are probably somewhat skewed in that they base their sales figures on those of the fifty biggest retailers or somesuch. So there will be small vape shops who sell our type of gear (but not cigalikes so much) and who wouldn't be factored in. But even with that, big tobacco has a huge share in the US vaping market.

Now this is really interesting... Thanks @RichJB

 

[Sash]

To those who think that the media misinterpreting or sensationalising the result of scientific studies is somehow unique to vaping, let me re-link John Oliver's excellent piece on Scientific Studies:



It is not just vaping. Every sector is affected by media misinterpretation or misreporting of scientific research. It shouldn't be a mystery why this happens. "Peanut Butter can kill you!" is a media headline that is going to get a lot more clicks than "New scientific study on peanut butter reveals nothing we didn't know already".

Thank you for putting this in a better way!