I'm not 100% sure exactly what it entails, but e-cigs get dumped into high risk with tobacco, porn, gambling etc.
Maybe why they are easier on it in the US, dunno. Or they already pay high risk fees.
I'm not 100% sure exactly what it entails, but e-cigs get dumped into high risk with tobacco, porn, gambling etc.
Maybe why they are easier on it in the US, dunno. Or they already pay high risk fees.
Thanks, that VapingPost article tallies with my assumption that sales to minors was the issue. That said, I think there are two factors in play here. The Visa and Mastercard clampdown in the US is one. However, if we take this paragraph from the communique that @SAVapeGear posted:
there is also the clear implication that they (PayFast, not Visa or Mastercard) expect online vaping sales to be prohibited in the future, should the SA legislation go the way they foresee. So I guess this SA move is part Visa/Mastercard and US deeming regulations, part PayFast and the SA legislation.
I think this is why, as you note, vaping is lumped in with tobacco, gambling, porn, etc. The first commonality that strikes me is that these are all age-restricted activities. I suppose the "high risk" element for processors is that, should a vendor be caught and prosecuted for selling online to minors, the processor becomes an accessory to/enabler of illegal activity. It might not be prosecutable but it's probably an image that processors don't want to have. If someone wants to become the next Elon Musk, I imagine that finding a way to verify the age of the online buyer would be a great way to do it. Maybe some registration system where adult buyers are issued with a unique PIN to identify them as over 21?
there is also the clear implication that they (PayFast, not Visa or Mastercard) expect online vaping sales to be prohibited in the future, should the SA legislation go the way they foresee. So I guess this SA move is part Visa/Mastercard and US deeming regulations, part PayFast and the SA legislation.
I think this is why, as you note, vaping is lumped in with tobacco, gambling, porn, etc. The first commonality that strikes me is that these are all age-restricted activities. I suppose the "high risk" element for processors is that, should a vendor be caught and prosecuted for selling online to minors, the processor becomes an accessory to/enabler of illegal activity. It might not be prosecutable but it's probably an image that processors don't want to have. If someone wants to become the next Elon Musk, I imagine that finding a way to verify the age of the online buyer would be a great way to do it. Maybe some registration system where adult buyers are issued with a unique PIN to identify them as over 21?
Maybe. What I keep wondering is whether a law classifying vaping equipment as tobacco products and therefore banning online sales thereof would pass muster when taken from Parliament to the constitutional court. They're usually not in the line of letting silly lobbyist laws stay in place. Juice containing nicotine might still be a thing, though.
In theory this is actually a lot simpler to do. Currently home affair has HANIS. Which allows for online verification of a person. Once we get to fingerprint biometrics, we can compare the fingerprints against home affairs and verify that it is in fact an adult buying. But a simpler method would just to do fica identification on a client.
Yes, it surely can't be that difficult to verify an online buyer's age? Even if the vendor or processor didn't have access to Home Affairs records and couldn't be given it due to privacy blah blah blah, how hard is it to set up a "buying club" where you pay R50 a year for membership, you give them a certified copy of your ID, they register you as a unique adult user and issue you with a PIN. And if you want to buy vape gear or alcohol or porn or some other age-restricted product online, you have an additional step where you enter your PIN and it verifies with the organisation before allowing you to proceed. It's an extra layer of bureaucracy but it's surely better than a situation where Mother Grundies are up in arms because of sales to minors.
The thing is it's not impossible, but it won't be good enough for MC/V/Europay. They want face to face authentication. But my advise to all vendors is to look into what processors local adult sites use.
Someone needs to come up with a local token-based system. I.E. buyers purchase tokens which are then redeemable for products. This was an old loophole used to get around certain liquor license trading rules. Each site could also, theoretically, run it's own token or voucher system.
This minor stuff is hearsay made up in this thread right here. It has not been given as the reason. Most cases minors do not have VISA or Mastercards and online banking in any case. Alcohol is still sold freely online by numerous retailers and all that's taken into account is there disclaimer and the age the buyer captured online when they signed up so the same could be said there.
Maybe it's just Twisp trying a different route since the letters didn't work, lol.
What about Western Union and PayU since they do the same thing and are way bigger than Payfast in other parts of the world? Paypal on another company should be fine to as long as it's not classified as "high risk".
Maybe it's just Twisp trying a different route since the letters didn't work, lol.
What about Western Union and PayU since they do the same thing and are way bigger than Payfast in other parts of the world? Paypal on another company should be fine to as long as it's not classified as "high risk".
Setting up another non vape related company as a "front" to receive CC payments would quite possibly be considered money laundering. A basic definition of money laundering is disguising the true origin of funds.
A dummy front company is not a viable option.
A dummy front company is not a viable option.
Nah, it's still going from buyer directly to vendor. No laundering at all and no law says you can't have 2 or more businesses like a florist, and a toy shop, and an e-card shop, oh and a vaping shop too. Pitty the last one doesn't make any money online.
It is obfuscating the nature of the transaction and according to my understanding of FICA it could get you into trouble. I did get training on FICA but I think I threw the manuals out when I left the bank, so I do stand to be corrected by someone that knows better.
Ya, we can just use the old fashioned way - EFT.
I loved PAYFAST EFT, but if I have to wait a day or two for money to clear, I can do so.
Did you read the VapingPost link? Key excerpt:
Online sales to minors has also become a concern in the UK. But fair enough, if sales to minors isn't the real reason, then what is?
Edit: just found this article which explains a bit more about high risk merchants. It's quite a big list.
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whiskey brain, my bad. Removed the dislikes from your posts.
Was that day as good for you as it was for me? I even closed all my accounts so I never have to set foot in a Standard Bank again lol.
Really though, EFT is not the end of the world and as per their communication, instant eft will still be online and available, so it will only really negatively impact capitec account holders (Like me)
I will just have to open a FNB savings account for my vape purchases.
It's the same as using ebucks. There is only a single transaction and the whole thing is done within the same company, so there are full records. There are many online businesses that use token exchange.
Vendors can sell vouchers for stores x y and z, and customer only use it at store z (vape shop)
I suppose one of the complicating factors is that vendors here don't use their own delivery services but rather couriers. In the UK article, they mentioned that supermarket and alcohol outlets deliver via their own vans and the driver is obliged to satisfy him/herself that the receiving customer is over 18. That would probably be too big a burden for the courier companies here or they would be likely to add a surcharge if they were legally obliged to do it.
Having read through the Tobacco Act, there is nothing in there that specifically forbids cigarette sales online. However it is very clear that sales to under-18s are forbidden. So I guess Pick n Pay and other online outlets don't offer cigarettes online for fear of being prosecuted. Makro still have cigarettes as an online category but the page remains blank when you load it and there are no products to select. At least, it does for me.
I'm a bit bemused as to how alcohol outlets manage to get away with online sales. Although there isn't the same hysteria around alcohol as there is for tobacco. I suppose it's a numbers game. Most people drink alcohol to some extent but smokers are a minority. So it's easier to legislate against tobacco than against alcohol.
Having read through the Tobacco Act, there is nothing in there that specifically forbids cigarette sales online. However it is very clear that sales to under-18s are forbidden. So I guess Pick n Pay and other online outlets don't offer cigarettes online for fear of being prosecuted. Makro still have cigarettes as an online category but the page remains blank when you load it and there are no products to select. At least, it does for me.
I'm a bit bemused as to how alcohol outlets manage to get away with online sales. Although there isn't the same hysteria around alcohol as there is for tobacco. I suppose it's a numbers game. Most people drink alcohol to some extent but smokers are a minority. So it's easier to legislate against tobacco than against alcohol.
Some of the courier companies here do verification though? If you've ever had a bank card delivered to you, you have to give the guy a copy of your ID as well as present the original ID. The driver then checks that you are the person in the ID, and that the ID matches the copy they have been given... Surely a similar system could be used?
I guess so. I believe some courier companies also ask for ID when delivering to prove that you are the recipient named on the waybill, although I've never had to show it. The thing is that the vendor would then need to instruct the courier that it's an age-restricted package. I would imagine the vast majority of courier parcels don't require age verification. So it's an extra PITA for the courier and questionable whether their drivers would even bother with it most of the time.
It's a flawed system that. Too much human interaction. My previous cards both got given to me without a single check of any documents.
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See my comment about it being too much of a PITA for the couriers. This was also identified as a problem in the UK with van drivers being required to satisfy themselves that the customer is 18 for alcohol deliveries. Many couldn't be bothered.
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