KnockOFF Juices (cloned and sold as originals)

[aktorsyl]

Question, most of the local juices sold in S.A. are made in a garage, lounge,kitchen, spare room or a "clean room". What makes them so safe compared to the these fakes? Let's not lie to ourselves that they are made in a lab.

Well there's no regulation so there's no hard guarantee, of course. But the known juice makers use safe ingredients, and don't try to just imitate the smell of an original regardless of the crap that goes in there in order to achieve that.

Not really fair to compare the two. The local juice makers make juice, the clone makers make fake imitations to get initial sales. The former cares about what it tastes like and how safe it is (for repeat business at the very least), the latter don't give a damn.

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[Zane87]

Well there's no regulation so there's no hard guarantee, of course. But the known juice makers use safe ingredients, and don't try to just imitate the smell of an original regardless of the crap that goes in there in order to achieve that.

Not really fair to compare the two. The local juice makers make juice, the clone makers make fake imitations to get initial sales. The former cares about what it tastes like and how safe it is (for repeat business at the very least), the latter don't give a damn.

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I hear what you are both saying, but my point is local juices are not tested nor do they have any standards. Alex, I have never seen nor heard anyone confirm that they have any iso certified lab. If anyone falls ill from local juice, what are the legal consequences? Not trying to derail the thread, just asking.

 

[craigb]

I hear what you are both saying, but my point is local juices are not tested nor do they have any standards. Alex, I have never seen nor heard anyone confirm that they have any iso certified lab. If anyone falls ill from local juice, what are the legal consequences? Not trying to derail the thread, just asking.

Instead of dealing with innuendo, let's ask...
https://www.ecigssa.co.za/all-juice-manufacturers.t39913/

Although I personally would have as much problem with homemade commercial juice from a reputable manufacturer as I would have buying a lemon meringue from a farmers market, ie none.

 

[RichJB]

I hear what you are both saying, but my point is local juices are not tested nor do they have any standards.

How is that different from imported juices? There are no ISO standards for juice, nor are juices tested anywhere afaik. The most you can expect is that the manufacturer would have juices made in a lab that is certified to ISO lab standards. But the product itself has no standard yet afaik. ISO is working on vaping standards but it will take a while before anything is published.

 

[aktorsyl]

How is that different from imported juices? There are no ISO standards for juice, nor are juices tested anywhere afaik. The most you can expect is that the manufacturer would have juices made in a lab that is certified to ISO lab standards. But the product itself has no standard yet afaik. ISO is working on vaping standards but it will take a while before anything is published.

What'll most likely happen is that they'll expect juice manufacturers to implement ISO 9000 first, until that happens.
Which I am completely fine with, to be honest.

 

[Soutie]

With the FDA involved and the fact juice is used for inhalation and the fact nicotine is classed as a toxin, it's quite likely that juice will fall under GMP standards. GMP standards quite frankly put ISO to shame and will cripple the vaping market for all but the very very big players.

 

[RichJB]

ISO 9000 will help but it's not really food specific, it's more about things like system management. I would think ISO 22000: Food Safety is a more appropriate standard as that at least deals with contamination and suchlike.

 

[aktorsyl]

ISO 9000 will help but it's not really food specific, it's more about things like system management. I would think ISO 22000: Food Safety is a more appropriate standard as that at least deals with contamination and suchlike.

Sorry, no idea where my mind is today. I meant ISO 22000, you're quite correct.
cGMP might be applied due to the nicotine, but I doubt it - unless it's classified as a smoking cessation device, in which case it becomes pharmaceutical and thus cGMP.

 

[RichJB]

Sorry, I am dof and wrong as usual, the American juice manufacturers body AEMSA has implemented standards. I'm not sure if it is compulsory for all US juice manufacturers to belong to AEMSA but it seems it is compulsory for AEMSA members to comply with the juice standards which can be seen here.

 

[zandernwn]

My worry is government intervention. All it takes is someone to fall ill or die from these knock offs and the knives will be out.

This

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[JakesSA]

Common misconception here - ISO - International Organisation for Standardisation - Note NOT Standards. ISO certification prescribes that a set of standards be created by the organisation that implements ISO and that it be followed and all deviations be carefully noted and analysed and that said standards be adjusted accordingly to prevent future deviations. It is prescriptive in very few areas, for example calibration of equipment etc. Legal standards on the other hand are prescribed by law and compliance is not optional.

I have been through a few ISO certified food manufacturing facilities and I am reasonably sure most people's kitchens are cleaner.

For example, many of South Africa's cereal products are infested by the weevil moth despite coming from the biggest food production companies in Africa. Ever seen those little brown moths fluttering around the pantry?

 

[aktorsyl]

Common misconception here - ISO - International Organisation for Standardisation - Note NOT Standards. ISO certification prescribes that a set of standards be created by the organisation that implements ISO and that it be followed and all deviations be carefully noted and analysed and that said standards be adjusted accordingly to prevent future deviations. It is prescriptive in very few areas, for example calibration of equipment etc. Legal standards on the other hand are prescribed by law and compliance is not optional.

I have been through a few ISO certified food manufacturing facilities and I am reasonably sure most people's kitchens are cleaner.

For example, many of South Africa's cereal products are infested by the weevil moth despite coming from the biggest food production companies in Africa. Ever seen those little brown moths fluttering around the pantry?

Agreed 50%. Well 60%
It may not be completely foolproof, but if you have CAPA's every day eyebrows are going to be raised. Especially if you apply FSSC. But of course you're right in respect to some facilities being plain dirty. I think the key is more in the controlled-environment aspect.

That's for ISO22000. For cGMP, it's a whole different ballgame - but that doesn't apply to food safety, of course (and food producers mostly aren't required to be GMP-compliant - rightly so).

Still, I trust ISO22000/FSSC with HACCP way more than I trust someone's garage. I guess it's all relative at the end of the day.

 

[RichJB]

Common misconception here - ISO - International Organisation for Standardisation - Note NOT Standards.

Standardisation is the field, standards are the product. The SABS is the national standardisation body, South African National Standards (SANS) is the product that the SABS Standards division produces. Although some SANS are developed from scratch specifically for South African conditions (such as the standard for Traditional Medicines), a great many are simply adopted from international standards which are produced by ISO or other international standardisation bodies like the International Electrotechnical Commission.

Legal standards on the other hand are prescribed by law and compliance is not optional.

I've never heard of a "legal standard". The majority of standards, national or international, are voluntary. Those that are compulsory, usually for health/safety/environmental reasons, are called compulsory specifications in SA and fall under the auspices of the National Regulator for Compulsory Specifications (NRCS).

 

[SmokeyJoe]

Common misconception here - ISO - International Organisation for Standardisation - Note NOT Standards. ISO certification prescribes that a set of standards be created by the organisation that implements ISO and that it be followed and all deviations be carefully noted and analysed and that said standards be adjusted accordingly to prevent future deviations. It is prescriptive in very few areas, for example calibration of equipment etc. Legal standards on the other hand are prescribed by law and compliance is not optional.

I have been through a few ISO certified food manufacturing facilities and I am reasonably sure most people's kitchens are cleaner.

For example, many of South Africa's cereal products are infested by the weevil moth despite coming from the biggest food production companies in Africa. Ever seen those little brown moths fluttering around the pantry?

Well, there goes my weetbix in the bin

 

[JakesSA]

Well, there goes my weetbix in the bin

Free protein?

A lot of focus seems to be on clean rooms for mixing of juice but the reality is that most contaminants that could be introduced while mixing, if even basic precautions are taken, are completely harmless (and so are weevil moths other than the grossness aspect).

I would be more interested in whether the flavour concentrate, nic ,pg, vg suppliers are ethical in disclosing the content of these ingredients supplied to the e-liquid mixer since very few e-liquid mixers have the ability or resources to verify these ingredients independently.

Rather than a super duper clean room I would rather see e-liquid mixers attest to using ingredients only from approved sources who should, at least of their own accord, create a standard for what is permissible in vaping ingredients according to the best current data and also belong to a governing body who can independently verify their claims. In other words, if I claim my concentrates are diacetyl free, who is to say otherwise?

So, in essence, I would like to see a governing body that all reputable e-liquid and ingredient manufacturers belong to, whose membership fees are used to maintain a database of verified suppliers and actively test ingredient suppliers' products to confirm that these products indeed include what it says on the label and is as safe as current information allows.

Dust won't kill me but minute quantities of arsenic to create that much sought after sour-sweet-minty-caramel-berry flavour probably will.

 

[zandernwn]

...and then all the certification in the world means nothing if the mixer gets his booger hook near the juice during mixing.

The approach should be holistic, environment, people, processes and controls and as jakes rightfully said full disclosure on raw products

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[Stosta]

...and then all the certification in the world means nothing if the mixer gets his booger hook near the juice during mixing.

The approach should be holistic, environment, people, processes and controls and as jakes rightfully said full disclosure on raw products

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A booger hook!! The thought of this just....

 

[RichJB]

...and then all the certification in the world means nothing if the mixer gets his booger hook near the juice during mixing.

That applies to all regulatory efforts, unfortunately. You can have the most stringent driving test in the world, it's not going to prevent road accidents. Human fallibility goes with the territory.

The approach should be holistic, environment, people, processes and controls and as jakes rightfully said full disclosure on raw products

I imagine it will be and the process is already well underway. Inawera have recently reformulated a whole bunch of flavours and are apparently now reformulating more. The reason is that they now need to provide full disclosure of everything that goes into their flavours. Some suppliers were unwilling to disclose so Inawera dumped them and used new suppliers. I can only imagine that the need to disclose is a condition of the TPD in the EU.

I think South Africa will need to do very little in terms of standardisation work for vaping. Flavour houses have already gone through the process of having their products cleared by the EU so there is no need to reinvent the wheel and do the same here. We would just accept whatever EU paperwork the flavour houses have.

ISO is already developing international standards for vaping hardware and juice, it will be a case of adopting those as SANS. If vaping is deemed a health risk (which seems the most likely outcome), the SANS will become a compulsory spec and all manufacturers will need to have their juice tested against the standard. It would be a fairly simple standard imo, which lays down maximum permissible levels for DAAP, contaminants, metals, etc.

The most elegant solution from both a manufacturer and consumer point of view would be the SABS Mark. To qualify for the Mark, manufacturers must have their product tested regularly against the applicable SANS and must also have a quality management system such as ISO 9001 or ISO 22000 in place. So the Mark on a juice gives consumers the assurance that the product is safe and fit for purpose, and that the manufacturer offers redress and has appropriate QM systems and processes in place.

 

[JakesSA]

Back to knock off juices, I would imagine there must also be a reasonable amount of e-liquid that gets 'dumped' on the market. What does the large vape retailers do with an e-liquid that does not sell well, and this may well run into 100s of bottles? This may also account for well known brands popping up in odd places at seemingly too low prices...

 

[Hooked]

My Op was NOT for Clone juice recipes but for some one who uses the name of the original juice manufacturer use the identical bottle and design and sells it as the original but at a lower cost thus the reason I said KNOCK OFF
so if this is not allowed can admins please remove thread.I honestly thought this would be appreciated or used as a go to guide for FAKE juices

I've also found that peeps sometimes don't read the original post properly, no matter how clearly you may have expressed yourself.

 

[Hooked]

Would like to add to this thread that I visited a flea market today in the East Rand and was shocked that every bubbly shop there about 6 at least were selling selling "fake/cloned juices under the original name. Jam Monster, French Dude, Kilo, Barry even Hazeworks to name a few at ridiculous prices. ( Jam Monster R120 for 120ml ) and let me tell you those shops were packed. Now that can't be right! But the kicker here is that they also selling fake hardware because a Pico kit can't be R100. Now to me selling a fong kong product that could short or possibly explode because corners have been cut is not on and potentially dangerous to the public for one and vaping itself.
If anyone needs more info from me to try stop this you are welcome to PM me.
Just needed to express this as it was weighing on my heart.
Thanks

My understanding is that juice should be stored in a cool, dark place - not quite the description of a flea market! I don't think that ANY juice should be sold at flea markets - and I certainly wouldn't buy it there because of the storage issue.

 

[Sharrivz]

Spot the fake...customer bought one of them in...

 

[Strontium]

One on the left

 

[Clouds4Days]

One on the left

Yip batch number and manufacturing date not printed on label.

 

[Smoke_A_Llama]

Yip batch number and manufacturing date not printed on label.

And the bottled by bit