Man dies from "vape pen" explosion

[CMMACKEM]

The retailer is not responsible. When Ford Kuga vehicles started catching fire, who did they blame - the car dealership that sold the car or Ford? When Samsung Note 7 phones started exploding, who did they blame - cell phone shops or Samsung? It's the manufacturer's product, the retailer is not responsible for the design.

Those were design or product flaws which led to fatalities and injury. That has nothing to do with my point.

If a firearm is sold to an inexperienced or unqualified user, the retailer is blamed not the manufacturer.

To add, a sa vape retailer was blamed for not advising on battery safety when a mod blew up in their bag. I won't say their name on here but I will PM it to you.

I get what you are saying but it does not always work like that. As a consumer, I expect a breakdown of the mod or product that I am purchasing and that is exactly what I usually get.

 

[Adephi]

The examples of Kuga's and Samsungs might not be applicable here. Those where design flaws that was not known at the time of selling the products.

Mech devices do come with known dangers that both manufacturers, distributors and retailers are aware of. If they don't we have a serious problem.

But I agree with both points. If distributors could only supply to retailers that is known to give proper information to their client base it could be a way of self regulation.

 

[Hooked]

What is rather tiresome is my non-vaping friends sending me links to this news article and "Have you seen this?? Maybe you should stop vaping."

 

[RichJB]

Those were design or product flaws which led to fatalities and injury.

Same with mechs. They are designed to not have safety features. That is a design issue, not a retail issue.

If a firearm is sold to an inexperienced or unqualified user, the retailer is blamed not the manufacturer.

The vaping retailer will be blamed for retail issues - like selling to minors or failing to honour a warranty. However, safety warnings about inherently hazardous products are not a legal obligation for retailers. If they were, the Master Settlement Agreement in the US would have held cigarette retailers, not big tobacco manufacturers, liable to pay damages to the state governments. Instead, it was the responsibility of cigarette companies to put health warnings on their packaging. It was never the responsibility of cafe owners to tell smokers about the hazards of smoking. Cafe owners are busy people who often have a queue of customers. They are not expected to be educators.

But even if we could somehow urge retailers to educate customers about mech safety, it is legally not enough to warn or educate customers about a hazard. You have to take all reasonable steps to eliminate that hazard. To illustrate with an example, if an electrician comes to your house and leaves live uninsulated wires hanging around after he's finished working, it is not enough for him to warn you that you mustn't touch the wires or you'll get shocked. He has to take all reasonable steps to ensure that you won't get shocked. That means insulating the wires properly and concealing them out of reach.

Have mech manufacturers taken all reasonable steps to ensure that their products are safe? Nope, they could have added safety features like the manufacturers of regulated mods have. The argument would then be that it's no longer a mech and what about all those who enjoy using mechs? Simple answer: the law doesn't care.

We have precedent for this in the firearms sector. It was at one point legal to own fully automatic machine guns in the US. Then they changed the law, banned full auto fire and forced manufacturers of assault rifles to offer them in only semi-auto mode to the public. The regulators were not swayed by arguments like "but then it's no longer a machine gun" or "but what about all those who enjoy using machine guns". They are there to protect the public, not pander to people's enjoyment. And their first port of call, as it always will be, is to hold the manufacturer liable for the safety hazards of the product.

 

[SinnerG]

Driving a virtual dead short with a high energy Li-Ion cell is just a BAD idea. You need current limiting to be a LOT safer.

Look, I have a few mechs, but don't really use them, it's just too risky. With an electronic device I know my resistance, I know my cell status, I know my voltage and I know my current - it's all live on screen. Above all I know that if anything goes wrong on my build I have current limiting.

In electrical engineering we are always designing with safety in mind. Mechs have no protection whatsoever.... No certifying institute would pass such a device anywhere in the world.

I know I will get flak for my stance, and everyone has the right to use whatever type of mod they choose, but we are getting so much bad press from these incidents that mech use should just be stopped. Problem is, making your own is so simple that they will probably never dissapear completely.

For a regulated mod to have current limiting then surely it has to know what battery is in it? How does it know?

 

[Kuhlkatz]

For a regulated mod to have current limiting then surely it has to know what battery is in it? How does it know?

I'd expect manufacturers of mods with built-in or internal batteries to use batteries or cells that exceed the required safety rating. The manufacturer should be held accountable for that if it's not the case.

For mods with replaceable batteries it's another story. The mod does not know what the rating of the battery is, which is why most of them will include a warning that states that High Drain or High Rate batteries should be used. Most 75W plus (single battery) and 200W+ Mods (dual or 3 battery) will recommend batteries with higher than 25A discharge current rating. Unfortunately none will explicitly state that they recommend Samsung 30Q or HG LG2 or Sony VTC5 etc.
HG turds have long been clearly marked with a warning that they should NOT be used in vaping devices, but who takes heed of that ?

On regulated mods the current-limiting is usually on the wrong side of the switching / inverter circuitry. They are not designed to 'detect' the battery and it's limitations, so if an inferior battery is used it simply would not know. If there is a short on the atomizer, it will kick in the safety feature and not fire, thus preventing or 'softening' the impact on the battery end. It may or may not have a fuse in the battery supply circuit that is blown should the expected 25A battery current be exceeded, but that would be useless if I put a set of 5A or 10A rated batteries in there. I can exceed the battery safety limits way before the mod's rated limit is reached, even when vaping at very low power levels.
Most of them may employ temperature sensing for the electronics in the mod, but not directly for each individual battery in the mod. By the time the battery is at a dangerous temperature level, the electronics could still be as cool as a cucumber if they are not in close proximity.

The question is, even if regulated mods have safety features, are they really intelligent enough to protect uninformed or inexperienced end users 100%?

This is the exact reason why I do not agree with Daniel of DJLSB Vapes' How to chose batteries guide. A 10A rated battery may max out at 15A or 20A when a direct short is applied across the terminals. If a 25A or 30A fuse is supposed to 'protect' it (and you), it will never blow the fuse but it will still blow the battery...

Always use the highest rated battery that you can find that matches or exceeds the requirements stated by the mod manufacturer, even if you only vape at 10W or 15W on your 200W mod.

Another thought : Who here has really read through the information leaflets and warning cards that are supplied with all their mods ? I'd say a very small percentage, and would even risk saying that this holds especially true for the more experienced vapers that is now on mod 3, 4, 20 etc.

 

[fidola13]

For a regulated mod to have current limiting then surely it has to know what battery is in it? How does it know?

They don’t know....

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/t...-vaping-devices-protect-the-batteries.896395/

 

[Silver]

I'd expect manufacturers of mods with built-in or internal batteries to use batteries or cells that exceed the required safety rating. The manufacturer should be held accountable for that if it's not the case.

For mods with replaceable batteries it's another story. The mod does not know what the rating of the battery is, which is why most of them will include a warning that states that High Drain or High Rate batteries should be used. Most 75W plus (single battery) and 200W+ Mods (dual or 3 battery) will recommend batteries with higher than 25A discharge current rating. Unfortunately none will explicitly state that they recommend Samsung 30Q or HG LG2 or Sony VTC5 etc.
HG turds have long been clearly marked with a warning that they should NOT be used in vaping devices, but who takes heed of that ?

On regulated mods the current-limiting is usually on the wrong side of the switching / inverter circuitry. They are not designed to 'detect' the battery and it's limitations, so if an inferior battery is used it simply would not know. If there is a short on the atomizer, it will kick in the safety feature and not fire, thus preventing or 'softening' the impact on the battery end. It may or may not have a fuse in the battery supply circuit that is blown should the expected 25A battery current be exceeded, but that would be useless if I put a set of 5A or 10A rated batteries in there. I can exceed the battery safety limits way before the mod's rated limit is reached, even when vaping at very low power levels.
Most of them may employ temperature sensing for the electronics in the mod, but not directly for each individual battery in the mod. By the time the battery is at a dangerous temperature level, the electronics could still be as cool as a cucumber if they are not in close proximity.

The question is, even if regulated mods have safety features, are they really intelligent enough to protect uninformed or inexperienced end users 100%?

This is the exact reason why I do not agree with Daniel of DJLSB Vapes' How to chose batteries guide. A 10A rated battery may max out at 15A or 20A when a direct short is applied across the terminals. If a 25A or 30A fuse is supposed to 'protect' it (and you), it will never blow the fuse but it will still blow the battery...

Always use the highest rated battery that you can find that matches or exceeds the requirements stated by the mod manufacturer, even if you only vape at 10W or 15W on your 200W mod.

Another thought : Who here has really read through the information leaflets and warning cards that are supplied with all their mods ? I'd say a very small percentage, and would even risk saying that this holds especially true for the more experienced vapers that is now on mod 3, 4, 20 etc.

Excellent post and very well explained @Kuhlkatz

This is a theme we've discussed a few times on the forum. I.e. That a regulated mod is not 100% safe. You still need to know what's going on and use the correct batteries for the mod and application. Otherwise there could be trouble.

 

[stevie g]

People must also realise that regulated mods are not 100% safe.

You still rely on the chip and quality of the connections, etc.

same thing as a cell phone but how much of those are covered up by the media.

Ever heard of "catch and kill"

Corporations purchase the stories of big brand phones exploding and squash it.

 

[stevie g]

For a regulated mod to have current limiting then surely it has to know what battery is in it? How does it know?

the electronics measure voltage sag, an algorithm will categorise battery capability

 

[CMMACKEM]

Same with mechs. They are designed to not have safety features. That is a design issue, not a retail issue.

Very different. Accidents with mechs are down to user error.

 

[Hooked]

And ... non-vapers are still asking me if I know about this. Yes, I know. I also know that there are cases where cellphones explode, but nobody tells you to stop using a cellphone, do they???