Nic salts - yay or nay?

[Waine]

Thats interesting @Waine, thanks

How does the vaping of nic salts compare for you with normal nic in your mtl setups?
I assume you have tried with high strength normal nic eg 18mg
How is the flavour? And the throat hit on the actual vape for you?

Silver, for me it makes no sense filling an MTL tank with 2ml's of regular eliquid. I never do it. The viscosity of the liquid is too thick and there is no satisfaction with the tight draw that MTL delivers. I would clog/burn the coil sucking so much. Also, using high nic, regular juice, eg 12 or 18 mg, is not pleasant for in an MTL for me.

I still vape regular RDA's, RTA's and squonkers, but when I need a quick satisfying hit I pull out one of my ever present ready to vape MTL's in my arsenal of which I own 10.

I love variety with vaping, and MTL brings a really enjoyable angle on vaping.

Having said that, I tried pod systems, like the Smoant S8. But these are too finicky and disappointing.

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

 

[Carnival]

The lowest nic salts I’ve seen (and tried) is NCV nic salts @ 15mg.

 

[Resistance]

Hi @Jean claude Vaaldamme

From my understanding, the nicotine in cigarettes is not what causes the majority of smoking related illnesses and premature death. As you say, its the tar that clogs up the lungs and the carcinogens that cause all the different cancers associated with smoking.

The nicotine itself is a stimulant and does raise your blood pressure and heart rate - but to my understanding in itself it is quite similar to caffeine. I don't think its good for you (better to not have it - although there are some cases where nicotine has some advantages) but i don't think nicotine is the main killer in cigarettes.

Despite that I do agree that it would be better to try wean oneself off the nicotine over time.

Caffeine is actually good to a certain point as are nicotine ,alchohol and whatever else we use to make our day pass by. The problem is that we overdo it and then create dependance to these stimulants.
Me however dont crave smoking. I crave the plant or rather tobacco. The smell, the taste and aroma's and that's a hard one to beat.
On salt,yes I have tried it but cant say I like it or would go for it.

 

[Hooked]

But the study says that you can only get nic addiction from tobacco nic, so if you are off sigarettes for a few months, then we all should be on 0mg, as we should have no more nic dependency, according to the study

@Jean claude Vaaldamme I've never been off nic lol. I stopped smoking with Nicorette which I chewed for 3 years. Each piece of Nicorette has 2mg nic. Started vaping just over a year ago. I tried to alternate between a tank of 3mg and a tank of zero nic, but it didn't work for me. I become very irritable without nic.

 

[Waine]

I am physically and psychologically addicted to nicotine, and I am not even going to fight it anymore. No matter how many times I have quit, I always come back to Lady Nicotine. Same goes for her cousin caffeine.

Regular vaping and especially MTL, strokes the nic receptors in my brain perfectly.

I just hope its safe(ish)

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[Resistance]

Those do look like the effects of an overdose and may (not making a claim of any sort here) not be the case at the levels we expose ourselves to using freebase nic. Maybe nic salts does get you closer to those levels seeing the levels and absorption rates being much higher.

I am also sceptic on the stated facts as they may have been based on the effects observed when consuming nic from a combustable source in which case many of those effects could be the result of hundreds of other chemicals. One would need to see the complete research paper those results are based on.

Regards

My brother I feel the same. How many nicotine choices do we have and people still smoke cigarettes and if it was really just the nicotine we would be satisfied with any means of getting it into our system.so my theory allows me to make sence of what you saying.

 

[GSM500]

That's interesting @incredible_hullk
Ive heard comments before about the strange taste - but not about the coughing.
I suppose each person experiences them differently

I have to agree on the strange taste, tastes like someone watered down my juice with vinegar. I also suffered from an irritated chest. Felt like I inhaled popping candy. I mixed my own @ 24mg. I'll stick to freebase thanks.

 

[RichJB]

Same goes for her cousin caffeine.

A friend of mine completed the great trifecta: giving up nicotine, alcohol and caffeine. She said coffee was - by far - the hardest of the three.

I suspect I would find the same. I've never been a drinker, only a glass of wine with dinner. But I've gone without for weeks on end and it doesn't faze me.

Nicotine I struggled. If withdrawal manifested in the usual way - occasional intense cravings which subside within about ten minutes and become less frequent over time - I could quit entirely. But in my case it manifested as continuous "butterflies in the tummy" which started about half an hour after I woke in the morning and just became more intense as the day continued. I quit cold turkey for a month before vaping (no NRT) and initially it was fine. But eventually that continuous nervous feeling, like I'm just about to give a speech on stage to a thousand people, wore me down. But I at least have it under control now, am taking in way less nic than I did while smoking, and need nic far less regularly than I did while smoking. I can go 5-6 hours without vaping, I would have really suffered going 5-6 hours without a smoke.

Coffee I don't even want to try. If I don't have two cups, right after each other, first thing in the morning, I just don't function. My nose starts to run, I get a headache, I'm irritable and can't focus on my work. So I'll live with caffeine addiction. But at least coffee is an affordable addiction. Alcohol, drugs and even nicotine can quickly spiral out of control. A vaper I know in Discord vapes 90ml of juice a day. If he didn't DIY, that would be a R300 a day habit, which is getting into cocaine territory in terms of financial harm. Go to an investment advisor, tell him you have R300 a day to sink into unit trusts and other investments, and ask him to calculate what your payout will be when you turn 65. It will be an eight figure sum. That is what nic addiction can cost. The health harms, trivial as they are, are very much a secondary concern.

 

[Rincewind]

Nicotine has never been proven to be addictive on its own. Just because some people got addicted does not mean the substance itself is addictive. I have read of people that got hooked on eating soap or couldnt stop themselves from spreading engine oil on their toast. This does not make soap or engine oil addictive substances.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1939993/

 

[RichJB]

I don't think vaping is ever going to convince the medical fraternity or the broader non-smoking public that nicotine isn't addictive. Or that big tobacco's nicotine is addictive but vaping's nicotine isn't. That just reads too much like a sales pitch.

As per Johann Hari's TED talk I posted earlier, heroin on its own isn't addictive either. Millions of hospital patients have been given heroin for post-op pain relief and they don't leave hospital as junkies. However, we cannot conclude from this that nicotine or heroin are no more addictive than eating soap. Because if that was the case, we'd have roughly equal numbers of drugs, nicotine and soap-eating addicts in society.

I think vaping advocacy should focus on the fights that it can win. Trying to convince society that nicotine isn't addictive, and there is therefore no reason for kids not to use it, is a guaranteed loss. Even if there is some truth to the theory - as there is with the parallel theory that heroin isn't addictive - it's not a notion that broader society is willing to entertain.

I don't think Hari's view, that it's about our cage rather than the substance and about bonding rather than addiction, is 100% right either. Because for sure there are smokers who are otherwise very sociable, successful, loving families, balanced harmonious lifestyle, lots of friends and so on. Why are they now addicted?

The latest research indicates that there are physiological differences too. We don't all have the same nicotine receptors in our brains. There are various different types of receptors and some are far more nicotine-hungry than others. So it's possible that the individual's DNA can, to a degree, determine their susceptibility to becoming addicted. If they happen to be born with an abundance of the wrong type of receptors, they will get hooked at the drop of a hat. Whereas those with the 'right' (least efficient) type of receptors could smoke for months and still not develop a significant dependency on nicotine.

 

[tool]

As being a chainsmoker for 30+ years, yes, I crave for the nicotine. I vape about 5ml/day with 15mg/ml nic, and that's okay for me. In my DtL times I got through 30-50ml 3mg/ml juice per day, so my total nic intake dropped, yet I get more satisfaction through MtL vaping. I'll try the salt stuff in a couple of weeks, there's 100mg base to buy in UK, I'll dillute it to 20-25mg/ml hoping to reduce my juice consumption in total, but I'll have a hard time dropping the amount of nic per draw. I don't need huge amounts ofe nic over the course of the day, but I need some kick while taking a draw. In the throat and in the brain.

 

[Puff the Magic Dragon]

I took a look at some of the advice given in the article by MedicalNewsToday mentioned above.

Their advice for giving up smoking was to use one or a combination of the following :

1. Prepare for quit day
2. Use NRTs
3. Consider non-nicotine medications
4. Seek behavioural support
5. Try alternative therapies

E-cigs are included under the alternative therapies which also suggest :

• magnet therapy
  • cold laser therapy
    • herbs and supplements
      
      • yoga, mindfulness, and meditation

Good luck with that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[tool]

Nicotine is not an enemy. It is in Tobacco, but not in vapejuice. I'd love to link some videos made by an austrian professor who is a toxicologist, but they are in german. He's a vaper and he clearly explains nicotine consumption under a scientific point of view, and it's not as harmful as it seems.

 

[Grand Guru]

The point here is to maintain a sufficient concentration of nicotine in your blood that is satisfies your respective needs whether you vape nic salts at above 30mg/ml or a Normal
Nicotine at 3mg/ml it is essentially the same thing. As long as you use nicotine and can’t survive without it, eventually your need/usage may or may not grow. That’s called “Addiction”!
On the other hand your body tells you if you used too much of it: dizziness, headaches, stomachaches, nausea and fast heart beat so companies may try to increase the nicotine in their liquid, your body will let you know...

 

[RichJB]

I'm not worried about companies putting more nic (than is advertised) in their juice. That would be a very crude mechanism to try and increase usage, and one that would be picked up very easily by the most basic of testing.

Instead, what I'm worried about is artificial chemical stimulation of the nicotine receptors in our brains. As I said earlier, there are several different categories of these receptors. Some pair with nicotine molecules very easily and metabolise the nic quickly and effectively. This provides the greatest sensory reward and is thus the most addictive. If genetics gives you a surplus of this type of receptor, you'll become a nic addict very easily.

Medical research knows about this and is now getting to the point where it can manipulate it. Pharma companies are already producing NRT with chemically engineered nic which targets and shuts down these most active receptors first, resulting in lesser cravings and longer periods before cravings re-occur. So the NRT works better at reducing cravings and helping you to quit.

But what if tobacco and vaping do the opposite - add chemically engineered nic which shuts down the least efficient receptors, leaving only the most efficient receptors to take the full nic load? This will have the opposite effect: the nic will metabolise faster, you'll get a greater nic rush and it will take less time before you feel the need for more nic. So they would be turning you into a helpless addict by targeting the most efficient receptors in your brain and increasing your brain's proclivity to sensory reward and therefore addiction. Which is great for sales.

The problem is that such chemical additives might not show up in regulatory testing. Or they might show up but the testers might be unsure of what the chemical actually does, and therefore take no action against it. Lab researchers are getting way too clever with smart drugs these days for me to trust them.

 

[Rincewind]

I don't think vaping is ever going to convince the medical fraternity or the broader non-smoking public that nicotine isn't addictive. Or that big tobacco's nicotine is addictive but vaping's nicotine isn't. That just reads too much like a sales pitch.

As per Johann Hari's TED talk I posted earlier, heroin on its own isn't addictive either. Millions of hospital patients have been given heroin for post-op pain relief and they don't leave hospital as junkies. However, we cannot conclude from this that nicotine or heroin are no more addictive than eating soap. Because if that was the case, we'd have roughly equal numbers of drugs, nicotine and soap-eating addicts in society.

I think vaping advocacy should focus on the fights that it can win. Trying to convince society that nicotine isn't addictive, and there is therefore no reason for kids not to use it, is a guaranteed loss. Even if there is some truth to the theory - as there is with the parallel theory that heroin isn't addictive - it's not a notion that broader society is willing to entertain.

I don't think Hari's view, that it's about our cage rather than the substance and about bonding rather than addiction, is 100% right either. Because for sure there are smokers who are otherwise very sociable, successful, loving families, balanced harmonious lifestyle, lots of friends and so on. Why are they now addicted?

The latest research indicates that there are physiological differences too. We don't all have the same nicotine receptors in our brains. There are various different types of receptors and some are far more nicotine-hungry than others. So it's possible that the individual's DNA can, to a degree, determine their susceptibility to becoming addicted. If they happen to be born with an abundance of the wrong type of receptors, they will get hooked at the drop of a hat. Whereas those with the 'right' (least efficient) type of receptors could smoke for months and still not develop a significant dependency on nicotine.

1. The nicotine in vapes, NRT's and cigarettes are the same, its the delivery method and the chemicals it is combined with that differs. That is why so few people get addicted to NRT's and so many to cigarettes. I am not adding nic salts to this list since I have no info on that. But once again things are being added to the nic to increase the absorption rate. And increased absorption rate does seem to be linked to increased chance of addiction.

2. John Hari studied social and political sciences and has no relevant medical training that I can find. Not that it matters. He is also a disgraced journo who had to return the Orwell Prize because of plagiarism. But that doesnt matter either. If Mr Hari has made some fantastic discovery he should write it up and submit it for peer review so that other scientists can weigh in and check his work. That makes his whole "show" an opinion piece with nothing to back it up.

As for why millions of people arent getting addicted to opioids, just google "Opioid Crisis" and I think you'll find that millions of people are indeed getting addicted. Not so much for soap.

He does mention Bruce K. Alexander and his "Rat Park" experiments and though Alexander has had a long and distinguished career his findings for the Rat Park experiments are in dispute. Here is a quote from his wiki regarding the Rat Park expirements: This article is seriously biased, particularly for a scientist whose views are as out of the mainstream as Alexander's. Sentences like "However, an American representative in the World Health Assembly effectively banned publication, apparently because the study seemed to contradict the dominant myth of addicting drugs, as applied to cocaine." imply some sort of grand conspiracy to silence him, when really it's his unreplicable research that is keeping him from recognition.

So as stated ealier, Mr Hari's views are just that. Views, and cannot be used to prove anything.

3. On your last point I mostly agree but would like to clarify that "If they happen to be born with an abundance of the wrong type of receptors, they will get hooked at the drop of a hat. Whereas those with the 'right' (least efficient) type of receptors could smoke for months and still not develop a significant dependency on nicotine." proves nothing about the substance in question, and everything about the individual who partakes of said substance.

 

[Raindance]

Addiction is a rather complex subject and may in fact not be solely a matter of chemical dependancy. I think we can safely accept that there ate those whom seem to be more prone to adopting addictions than others. Whether that is the result of personality trates like lack of willpower or a more deeply routed biological cause originating from genetic makeup is debatable. Maybe both?

But there are other factors as well. Habbit, peer pressure, just plain enjoyment, escape, I think the list goes on.

People not only get addicted to so called drugs. We get addicted to exercise, tv programmed, social media, food....

In my mind the possibility exists that addiction may be more a matter of adopted behavior that has become part of a persons daily existence resulting in a habit without which that person could possibly no longer relate to himself.

Then again maybe not or all of the above combined.

Regards

 

[Chukin'Vape]

If you are already on low freebase nic, and doing well - dont even bother looking at nic salts. The hit you get from it is a real shock the system... do you guys remember that head rush from the first cigarette in the morning.... Well nic salts will give you that and more. Its such a strong stimulant that my palms started sweating from using it, and I found myself hyped up - almost as if you drank one cup of coffee to much in the morning. The truth about nic salts has not hit the mainstream yet, and the problem is that salts is considered what vaping is in the US. So I foresee problems in the future. Getting off salts felt a lot like getting off ciggies. My advice would be to not even try this once.

 

[RichJB]

If Mr Hari has made some fantastic discovery he should write it up and submit it for peer review so that other scientists can weigh in and check his work.

Do you disagree with his view that many people in hospital are given opioids for pain relief, yet few of them emerge from hospital as drug addicts? If old ladies who go in for hip replacements were going to become heroin addicts merely from taking the pain medication, would hospitals even be legally allowed to provide it? It seems obvious to me that Hari has a valid point. Whether he committed plagiarism or not on some other matter is inconsequential. He is making an observation that tallies with our own common sense. So if heroin addiction can't be reliably induced simply by taking the drug, is it that surprising that nicotine should be similar?

The nicotine in vapes, NRT's and cigarettes are the same, its the delivery method and the chemicals it is combined with that differs.

On this we agree. And if vaping contented itself by claiming that cigarette smoking is the easiest and surest way to instill nic addiction because it's the most efficient delivery method for nicotine, and/or that tobacco companies are putting additives into their product, I'd be fine with that. It's when vaping goes the extra step of claiming that nic isn't addictive, that it's "something else in tobacco smoke" that is causing the addiction, that I object. Because that again becomes a sales pitch, not science.

On the subject of Rat Park, I think the premise is sound. I participated in a study last year which, among other things, examined smoking rates among the mentally ill. The figures are universal on this: in every country, every group who is marginalised in some way - the poorer, the less educated, the unemployed, the disabled, the LGBT community, refugees/immigrants - has a higher smoking rate than the national average. Among those with schizophrenia and depression, it's something like 2-3x higher than the national average. So clearly there are "cage" aspects in play. It's not just the physical effect of the drug or even the physiological make-up of the smoker. There are demographic class/status issues as well. If people don't feel appreciated or valued in their society, the chances of them becoming nicotine dependent increase.

 

[Rincewind]

Do you disagree with his view that many people in hospital are given opioids for pain relief, yet few of them emerge from hospital as drug addicts? If old ladies who go in for hip replacements were going to become heroin addicts merely from taking the pain medication, would hospitals even be legally allowed to provide it? It seems obvious to me that Hari has a valid point. Whether he committed plagiarism or not on some other matter is inconsequential. He is making an observation that tallies with our own common sense. So if heroin addiction can't be reliably induced simply by taking the drug, is it that surprising that nicotine should be similar?



On this we agree. And if vaping contented itself by claiming that cigarette smoking is the easiest and surest way to instill nic addiction because it's the most efficient delivery method for nicotine, and/or that tobacco companies are putting additives into their product, I'd be fine with that. It's when vaping goes the extra step of claiming that nic isn't addictive, that it's "something else in tobacco smoke" that is causing the addiction, that I object. Because that again becomes a sales pitch, not science.

I do disagree, vehemently so : https://www.moveforwardpt.com/Resources/Detail/7-staggering-statistics-about-america-s-opioid-epi

By the numbers literally millions of people are abusing and getting addicted to opioids. Now on a population level that is not going to be a large percentage but its enough to cement their place as highly addictive substances.

Here are some more links: https://labblog.uofmhealth.org/rounds/what-these-10-studies-taught-us-about-opioid-addiction-2017
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/06/180612105731.htm

So clearly, whether is sounds like common sense or not, old ladies and others are getting addicted... Reliably, predictably and common senseably (is that a real word?). Stating otherwise is a clear denial of the facts.

On the other hand we have NRT's, which have been available for years with tens of millions of users. Its available over the counter without the need to show an ID and only a handful of people world wide have become addicted. Clearly if it was just the nicotine addicting people then those numbers would be different. Patches and gums would be prescription medication, they would be highly regulated and they would certainly not be available over the counter.

How do you square this obvious contradiction in the numbers? How are cigarettes highly addictive but patches and gums are not?

 

[RichJB]

I'm not saying people aren't getting addicted. I'm saying that you cannot reliably induce addiction by giving a hospital patient opiods for post-op pain relief. If it was a cert that giving a patient opioids would lead to addiction, hospitals would be forbidden from issuing opioids. The knock to the patient's quality of life would be deemed too big a downside. The same applies to soldiers wounded in battle. Hundreds of thousands were given morphine for the pain. Only a very small percentage become morphine addicts. No drug, not alcohol, not nicotine, not opioids, induces addiction reliably and invariably. Not even smoking does. Of the huge numbers of teens who try it, relatively few go on to become full-time smokers.

On the issue of NRTs, it's a tricky one because the vast majority who take them are already addicts. Unlike vaping, it is not a lifestyle product. The cool kids at school aren't sticking nicotine patches on their skin. There aren't competitions to see who can blow the biggest bubble with their nicotine gum. Patch users don't stand in the middle of malls making a big show of putting their patches on so that bystanders will pat them on the head and congratulate them for being the smartest guys in the room for quitting stinkies.

For those who aren't addicted to nic and who take NRT, I think it would be minimally addictive because it's a slow-release mechanism that won't give you a nic rush but is instead designed to release just enough nic to allay withdrawal pangs. So there is little sensory reward and it's the sensory reward that makes it addictive. Unless you stick ten patches on your skin. But people don't use ten patches and the reason they don't is because the pharma companies who make them instruct against it. They give very specific instructions on how much of their product you should use, and for how long before stopping use.

This too is why pharma is granted more leniency by govt than vaping companies are. If vaping companies urged users to vape no more than 5ml of liquid per day, to continually strive to reduce the nic content of their juice, and to vape for no more than three months before trying to quit nic altogether, govt would be a lot more amenable towards vaping as a smoking cessation tool.

 

[RichJB]

On the subject of opioid addiction, the stats bear out what Johann Hari was saying. America's epidemic of opioid use is not among hospital patients who are issued opioids and become incidentally addicted. Instead, it's happening among the youth who actively go out and seek opioids from street dealers. Wayne talked a lot about his heroin addiction and he attributed it to being bored and having no prospects. This is the case all across America. There are hundreds of small "factory towns" where, for years, kids would grow up in the town, get a job at the local factory and would live comfortable middle-class lives. Then those factories started closing down, jobs got shipped out to China or Mexico and suddenly those kids now have no prospects and nothing to live for. So, as Hari says, they turn to drugs to fill a hole in their lives.

We are seeing the same thing here in SA. I have chatted to community workers in Mpumalanga and they attest to the same phenomenon: small towns where the jobs have dried up and the youth are now turning to nyaope in their hordes. There are towns where functionally the entire town are now nyaope addicts. Or tik in the Cape. It's not just that these are addictive substances, they are. But it's because people are driven to addiction by an environment where there are few prospects and little hope. It's an ideal breeding ground for a drug epidemic. The addictive qualities of the drug are only part of the story. There is a whole socio-economic aspect as well.

 

[Silver]

Hi guys

Great discussions going on here

But I would like to hear more about Nic salts - and from those that have tried them - what have your experiences been ?

 

[Alex]

I have a few bottles of nic salt juices that I use on occasion, not for the salts per say, but just because they are within arms reach on my desk.. and they happen to be tobacco flavoured.

I am happy to finish them because I can't let it go to waste, but I wouldn't purchase nic salt juices. I love my 18mg freebase, and the low consumption that goes along with it. I only go through about 6-7ml per day. And I'm really cool with this setup.

 

[jm10]

Hi guys

Great discussions going on here

But I would like to hear more about Nic salts - and from those that have tried them - what have your experiences been ?

Nic Salts worked for me, up until 1 month ago i still had a craving and when out with a guys i would say ag one cig wont hurt but had to convince myself not to.

Now days i dont even think about smoking and the cravings have gone.

Yesterday and today i went the entire day with just freebase 3mg and never craved the nic salts.

I would say nic salts worked for me and I’m grateful to it, it did its job.

When i first tried nic salts my chest would get a little heavy and i did @Silver a few times but after a while my body got use to it and that was that.